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Atheism, epistemology, evolution, evolutionary argument against naturalism, naturalism, philosophy, Plantinga, religion
I find the evidence for evolution pretty convincing. Being theist it might mean something a bit different than being a naturalist (by naturalist I mean someone who does not believe in anything supernatural, no gods, no spirits etc.) when we talk about “randomness.” What is random to us, of course, is not random to God. We think how dice will land is random. But, we also know that how they land is based on the forces applied and the angles that the dice hit, combined with predictable laws of nature. So what is random for us is not random for something with an infinite understanding. I don’t see “randomness” of evolution in creating us as we are as much different the “randomness” of which sperm will fertilize which egg.
In an earlier blog I talked about how evolution as an explanation might carry some logical baggage for the naturalist. Why aren’t the problems caused for the theist? Generally it has to do with that idea of whether the events are random to everyone (naturalism)– or whether they are just random to us but not the creator of the universe (theism). It seems to me that unless you are attached to a very literal reading of genesis, evolution does not really present any problems for the Christian. On the other hand the way it is filling in the details for the naturalist, it might cause some logical friction with beliefs naturalists would like to hold on to. It creates at least 2 arguments against naturalism and it tends to buttresses a third.
1.First there is the argument that if naturalism is true there is no morality. (Again as per my earlier blog when I talk about “morality” I am referring to moral realism) This argument existed before evolution was even presented as a theory so evolution didn’t create this argument. But I do think it tends to buttress the argument. Evolution is a convincing explanation that helps flesh out the naturalist worldview, but it fleshes it out in a way that morality seems very much a sort of odd fifth wheel.
It’s not that I think it’s logically impossible for moral realism to be true if naturalism is true. I think the Euthyphro dilemma does tend to demonstrate how it could work. So in my opinion it’s not logically impossible for real morality to exist if naturalism is true. It’s just that accepting moral reality seems to have no place in the framework naturalists accept. If you apply the same standards of reason and necessity for “evidence” that many naturalists apply to God I think many would be logically contradicting themselves to believe in moral realism.
Preserving moral realism is important because it is the only option where we reject the idea that when it comes to morals we make it all up it. From that it logically follows that the naturalists who believe in some non-realist moral system are essentially believing in “make believe.” That is a common accusation thrown at theists isn’t it? In any case I am interested in believing reality not make believe.
While I agree that there is no logical contradiction in believing in naturalism and moral realism. I still think this may be a good argument to support belief in God. Why? Again it depends on the other beliefs that a person holds as to what sound argument might be a “proof.” It seems to me that many atheists claim to apply standards to all their beliefs. These standards exclude the belief that God is real, but they aren’t using those standards when it comes to analyzing whether morality is real. For example the moral properties that moral realism posits are not directly observable by the senses. This is why there are no labs to help us identify if this or that is immoral. We do not devise better telescopes or microscopes, x-ray machines, ultrasounds, stethoscopes to help us see, hear, touch, smell or taste these moral properties.[1]
Kant, and Mackie both make a sorts of “moral argument.” Mackie chose to not believe in Morals rather than to believe in God. But even earlier I have read at least a few historians explain that the ancients required belief in the Gods because they thought atheists would be immoral. So the idea of a connection seems to go back to antiquity.
2.The second argument is that even if we assume morals exist without God, our understanding of natural selection makes it very unlikely that our moral beliefs are reliable. I came to this conclusion on my own and it is a reason why I believe in God. Of course, it takes a few steps beyond just proving that evolution would make our moral beliefs unreliable (which covers allot of ground itself) to say this “proves God exists.” And indeed the conclusion of my argument is not “God must exist” but rather that “it is irrational not to believe in God.” Like I said earlier at least three philosophers, Sharon Street, Richard Joyce, and Mark Linville have published articles in support of this argument. The first two are naturalists. They simply do not believe in moral realism. I will write some blogs on this argument and what I think its implications are in the future.
3. The third argument is that if evolution and naturalism is true then all our beliefs are unreliable. Alvin Plantinga has made this argument and it is called an evolutionary argument against naturalism, or EAAN. This argument might be sound but I don’t think it has much promise of convincing many naturalists. I would like to give a basic overview of it, a very common objection, and why I think the common objection fails to appreciate the full effect of the argument. That said it is not an argument I have thought a whole lot about. So I certainly welcome and look forward to any comments on my views of the argument.
First understanding the argument. Evolution or natural selection is “aimed” at creating creatures that are fit for survival and reproduction. I say “aimed” in quotes because evolution is not really “aimed” at anything, but the general effect is still as if it were aimed at traits with higher fitness in those areas. To the extent the results of evolution are not just random that is a trend we can identify.
Now we should note at the outset that this model of how we came to be, does not directly claim it would create creatures that tend to hold reliably true beliefs. Plantinga quotes Darwin, “the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?'” Charles Darwin, to William Graham 3 July 1881
Now I think Darwin’s quote goes some of the distance but it doesn’t quite go all of the distance. We shouldn’t just think of the beliefs of monkeys, but really the potential beliefs of any living thing under this model. I mean we certainly tend to believe monkeys would have a lot of true convictions since they are like us. But there are plenty of other living things that have evolved today and perhaps many times others that did not. And if we want to objectively look at the types of belief systems this process might develop we might as well replace monkeys with “jellyfish like” creatures that have some sort of mental function they use to spend most of their time dreaming. OK let’s move on.
Although Plantinga disagreed, I think this argument is fairly well follows from Descartes comments from the quote I gave in an earlier blog:
“Some, indeed, might perhaps be found who would be disposed rather to deny the existence of a Being so powerful [God] than to believe that there is nothing certain. But let us for the present refrain from opposing this opinion, and grant that all which is here said of a Deity is fabulous: nevertheless, in whatever way it be supposed that I reach the state in which I exist, whether by fate, or chance, or by an endless series of antecedents and consequents, or by any other means, it is clear that the probability of my being so imperfect as to be the constant victim of deception, will be increased exactly in proportion as the power possessed by the cause, to which they assign my origin, is lessened.”
When Descartes refers to “deception” I think he is generally just saying that our senses and beliefs might be misguided or unreliable. The process of evolution is just another way in which I reach this state without the idea that God did it.
The most common response I see to the EAAN is something along these lines that Travis raises in his blog. http://measureoffaith.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/a-few-comments-on-plantingas-where-the-conflict-really-lies/
Travis states:
“As I read through the EAAN, I was eagerly anticipating Plantinga’s response to the following objection: evolutionary theory claims that well before any creature was conscious there were sensory systems that triggered responses which selected the population. Selection is dependent on beneficial interactions with the external world. If those interactions do not consistently and properly map to the outside world then they are less likely to be beneficial.”
To address this objection we need to first understand how an “undercutting defeater” works. In contrast, a “rebutting defeater” is one where we get evidence that contradicts our belief. That’s not what an undercutting defeater is. An undercutting defeater is where we accept a model where our beliefs are not justified, but not because other evidence rebuts them, but because we recognize they were formed in an unreliable way.
Here is an example of an undercutting defeater from a philosopher named Pollock: You are visiting a factory and you see a bunch of red parts sitting in a room. You look at them and they appear red so you believe they are red. But then the supervisor comes up and tells you that the parts you see actually have a very strong red light shining on them so they can better detect if any defects exist in the parts. He tells you they would appear red regardless of whether they were red or not.
So the supervisor does not tell you they are not red; it’s still possible they are red. But your justification for believing they are red just dropped off because you see that the model by which you acquired the belief that they are red, is not a reliable one as to beliefs about the redness of the parts. So that is the basic idea of an undercutting defeater. It’s not that it’s impossible that they are red, but given that model any such beliefs about their redness would be completely unfounded.
Let’s consider an undercutting defeater that would undercut all of our beliefs. Let’s say you accept the skeptical scenario/model of your existence such that you are a brain in a vat being manipulated by an evil genius in some other solar system on planet called Ork. This evil genius can instantly give you any beliefs he wants. Let’s call this “model A.” And let’s say you believe this “model A” is how you came to exist.
It is important to note that this would not mean that the majority of your beliefs are false. In fact we might be able to imagine a situation where at least the vast majority are true. Let’s say there is a body (let’s call the body “Bob Dole”) on earth and the evil genius gives you beliefs based on what the Bob Dole’s body sees. Now you know you are not Bob Dole. You know you are the product of a brain in a vat on a different planet, Ork. Your location is not where Bob Dole is you are just given sensations and beliefs based on what Bob Dole’s body sees, smells hears feels etc. At least it’s possible that the body “Bob Dole” is actually there on earth making all the movements you believe he is making seeing smelling etc all the same scenes that the brain in a vat gives you. It’s logically possible that what you see and believe is happening on earth through Bob Dole’s eyes, is actually happening. Thus on this model A, it’s logically possible that your beliefs are largely true. Just like it is possible that the parts are red in Pollock’s example. It’s just that nothing in model A directly requires that your beliefs are necessarily reliably true.
Well let’s say you accept that “model A” is how you came to exist. Now under Model A though you also come to believe that all your beliefs are reliable and mostly true. How? It doesn’t really matter. But for example, let’s just say, on earth you see through Bob Dole’s eyes that there are evil geniuses manipulating brains in vats there on earth. Now it seems those brains in vats create minds that believe that they are observing people on some other planet as well. Maybe Ork or other parts of earth or wherever. But the thing is this. You very strongly believe that the evil geniuses who give the brains in the vats unreliable beliefs tend to die off quickly often even immediately. Therefore you come to believe that most minds created by brains in a vat have reliable beliefs. Therefore you conclude that even though you are a brain in a vat you can reasonably think your beliefs are reliable.
Ok that might not seem the most convincing tale, but there is a very clear problem with all of the reasons given in the paragraph immediately above. Namely, all of the beliefs expressed in the above paragraph would have been produced through “model A”. It seems to me that once you accept “model A” you have a defeater for all your beliefs. Sure you might develop beliefs like the one that “most evil geniuses give reliable to beliefs due to reasons xyz” but those are all beliefs secondary to the original model that does not guarantee reliability. Once you accept something like Model A all your beliefs that form from it have an undercutting defeater.
Plantinga argues that the based on such a model the likelihood of our beliefs being reliable is “either low or inscrutable” I think “inscrutable” is an important idea to understand. It means that we cannot even rationally investigate or evaluate the probabilities. Since all of our beliefs are affected by these pulls to something that is not necessarily true, and we can’t step outside our beliefs and see what is really going on, it would seem the reliability is in fact inscrutable. In the example of the red widgets we can sort of see what is happening with respect to our beliefs regarding the redness of the widgets. But when something like evolutionary forces are effecting all of our beliefs we can’t gain that vantage point. We have no beliefs that would not have been influenced by evolutionary pulls from which we can reason about the probabilities. In a way all of our beliefs have the red light tinting them.
Is the Evolutionary model (“model E”) like model A? I think it is. The evolutionary model is at best “aiming” at survival/reproduction. This is not necessarily the same as aiming at reliably truth tracking mental systems. We, of course, might come to believe they are related. For example we might hold a set of beliefs like those Travis stated. The problem is those are beliefs we came to hold secondary to the Model E, which does not necessarily produce reliably true beliefs. Both Model A and Model E have the same flaw. The model itself does not explicitly indicate that the creatures it creates will have reliable beliefs. Accordingly once we say we were created from that model then taking beliefs XYZ and saying these logically yield the conclusion our beliefs are reliable will be irrational. This is because beliefs XYZ are just the product of the model that we agreed at the outset would not explicitly produce reliable beliefs. Both model A and model E share that unfortunate quality.
Can we include those beliefs that I quoted from Travis and make them part of the Evolutionary model? Yes I suppose we can but they are not part of the model now. Just like we can change model A to be Model B. Model B could be I am created by brain in a vat that is controlled by an evil genius *and* that evil genius gives me reliable beliefs. So Model E could become Model F. Model F is that I came about from a process that selected for things that survived, reproduced, and had reliably true beliefs. But until that is done I think those who adopt the view that they were created by a completely natural selection do indeed have a defeater for all their beliefs.
Is the person who accepts naturalism and evolution any worse than everyone who has to deal with the skeptical scenarios? Yes I think they are. They not only have to deal with the possibility that a skeptical model might be the case, they actually believe one is the case.
Now perhaps someone would say that it’s not really that the evolutionary model comes before our belief that our beliefs are reliable. First we believe our senses and beliefs are reliable and it’s only after that we accept the evolution model. My response would be what if someone came to believe model A in the same way? That is they looked around the world around them and for whatever reason they too decided they must be a brain in a vat. I don’t think it matters how you get the model in your beliefs, once it’s there it works as a defeater.
[1] At least not directly. Sure science might help us understand what actions might be moral or immoral indirectly. So for example we may find out that certain people have mental disorders and our understanding of those mental disorders might help us understand the level of their culpability. Also some Catholic Church scholars thought that our understanding of dna and the fact that an embryo’s dna was different than that of the mother seemed to inform their decision that abortion was wrong. But there can be no doubt that there are cases of moral disagreement where no amount of learning the empirical facts is at issue. Abortion might be such an issue. It’s not as if the pro-choice community is unaware of the dna differences between a mother and the fetus she carries.
Within all the complexity of life is the language of DNA.
Language is not random in that it conveys specific, meaningful information.
And for that reason it conveys intelligence.
The randomness of nature is unintelligent because it does not convey information.
Nevertheless, because nature is coherent and driven by consistent laws, this also indicates intelligence.
The core atheist dogma, that everything happened all by itself (without God) is in fact disproven by the intelligence inherent in all created things.
Silenceofmind
Thank you for your comments.
I think your comments are dealing with the teleological argument and perhaps the argument from fine tuning of the universe. I think those arguments do lend some weight toward theism.
I think this argument might have some similar ideas at the base but it is really a distinct argument.
I admit the way I formulate it by drawing an analogy to Cartesian skepticism will probably not convince many people unless they are familiar with that line of thought. So its utility as a “proof” is likely not as good as the arguments you reference. Nevertheless I think it’s is a sound argument and discussing it brings up helpful concepts, such as how defeaters work, which will be somewhat important to other arguments I will raise on this blog. I hope you continue reading it and sharing your thoughts.
Joe,
As I see it, your take on the argument boils down to saying that a belief can only be considered reliable if it originates with something that guarantees its reliability. If the model doesn’t assert from the beginning that the formation of beliefs are necessarily reliable, then the model fails no matter what the evidence says. I think I understand what you’re saying, but let’s keep exploring this.
The brain in the vat example starts off with a basic picture that makes it sound like an utterly unreliable model, but that’s only because all the facts aren’t in. As you build it up and provide more and more evidence, it becomes more and more reasonable. Eventually, as I alluded to in the last response on my post, you would reach a point where the model seems to be justified. Your argument, however, still asserts that the whole house of cards comes tumbling down because there isn’t a foundation which guarantees reliability. No amount of evidence can overcome the crack in the base.
Consider this hypothetical: suppose we had perfectly preserved nervous systems from countless creatures over the last 600 million years and could clearly see a progression in their neurological complexity. Suppose that neuroscience has advanced to the extent that we could employ our knowledge of neural networks to accurately predict the response to a given stimulus. Suppose that we could reliably influence people’s perception and behavior by manipulating the stimulus to their nervous system and that this capability was developed by studying the nervous systems of those 600 million years of creatures. Lastly, and most importantly, suppose that we also had 600 million years of genetic information and we could trace every change to the DNA, identify its functional outcome and know the relative infrequency of the beneficial changes compared to other deleterious and neutral changes. If we held this wealth of evidence, would you still assert that the whole thing can only be true if the process was guided by a mysterious force which is goal oriented toward guaranteeing reliable belief formation?
Here’s the problem that I kept coming back to in our previous discussion: at some point the weight of the evidence either supports or contradicts the model. If the evidence contradicts the model, then you are justified in changing your model. In the hypothetical scenario above, the evidence points toward an unguided process. If the only way to hold a reliable belief is to assert that there is a “guiding force” which guarantees reliable beliefs then it would appear that the tables have suddenly turned. Now, in this scenario, it would appear that the guiding force is producing evidence against its own existence, which infers that the guiding force does not actually produce reliable beliefs.
So where do you draw the line? At what point does the weight of the evidence overcome the model? When the evidence screams “UNGUIDED!”, there eventually comes a tipping point where the roles are reversed and the model which assumes a guiding force is the one that looks like it has a crack in its foundation. This is the tension we face. As I look back at that hypothetical scenario it seems to me that we’re not as far away as some may think and so, for me, the scales have tipped.
Travis
Thank you for your comments. Originally this blog was just to be a quick overview of the 3 arguments. But in discussing this argument on your blog I decided to throw a bit more of my thoughts on EAAN in this blog as well.
Let me start by saying that my argument is one by analogy. I suggest that believing in Model A (brain in a vat) would be a defeater for all of our beliefs. I then say that model E (evolution and naturalism) is like Model A (brain in a vat) in all respects relevant to how the defeater of model A arises. So I anticipate criticism of this argument will come in at least 3 forms:
1) Model A does not provide a defeater for all of our beliefs
And/or
2) Model E is not like Model A in an important respect relative to the defeater in model A, and therefore Model E does not create the defeater that Model A does.
3) Some other argument that I didn’t think of.
Now it seems to me that most of your comments are directed at 1 above. That is you seem to think Model A would not in fact be a defeater for all of our beliefs. I was expecting more arguments along the lines of the 2. Although what I wrote in the blog is the best I can make of the issues, I admit my intuition twitches that the second attack might have some bite. However, I do think its solid. In model A the only filter our beliefs go through is the whim of the genius manipulating our brain. This is different than saying our beliefs track reality. Our beliefs formed by this model will not be useful to determine whether there is in fact an overlap. In respect to Evolution the only filter for our beliefs is reproduction and survival. This too is a different than saying our beliefs track reality and therefore our beliefs that flow from this model will not be useful to determine whether there is overlap between that and tracking reality.
But let me address what you wrote:
“As I see it, your take on the argument boils down to saying that a belief can only be considered reliable if it originates with something that guarantees its reliability. If the model doesn’t assert from the beginning that the formation of beliefs are necessarily reliable, then the model fails no matter what the evidence says. I think I understand what you’re saying, but let’s keep exploring this.”
This is sort of it. But I would say that I don’t think the model needs to “guarantee” reliability, at least not in the sense that all our beliefs will be true. I think the model needs to include some affirmative statement general reliability that our beliefs will track reality. To the extent the model completely leaves that out and only indicates that the beliefs will be formed toward some third goal (say reproduction, or the whim of the evil genius manipulating the brain) or be random I think that is a real problem. Because if we only accept that in our model, then the worth of our other beliefs will be defeated. But let me illustrate what I mean based on your other comments.
“The brain in the vat example starts off with a basic picture that makes it sound like an utterly unreliable model, but that’s only because all the facts aren’t in. As you build it up and provide more and more evidence, it becomes more and more reasonable. Eventually, as I alluded to in the last response on my post, you would reach a point where the model seems to be justified. Your argument, however, still asserts that the whole house of cards comes tumbling down because there isn’t a foundation which guarantees reliability. No amount of evidence can overcome the crack in the base.
Consider this hypothetical: suppose we had perfectly preserved nervous systems from countless creatures over the last 600 million years and could clearly see a progression in their neurological complexity. Suppose that neuroscience has advanced to the extent that we could employ our knowledge of neural networks to accurately predict the response to a given stimulus. Suppose that we could reliably influence people’s perception and behavior by manipulating the stimulus to their nervous system and that this capability was developed by studying the nervous systems of those 600 million years of creatures. Lastly, and most importantly, suppose that we also had 600 million years of genetic information and we could trace every change to the DNA, identify its functional outcome and know the relative infrequency of the beneficial changes compared to other deleterious and neutral changes. If we held this wealth of evidence, would you still assert that the whole thing can only be true if the process was guided by a mysterious force which is goal oriented toward guaranteeing reliable belief formation?”
It’s important to note that at best I could believe these things are true. They might in fact be true but to assume they are true is to assume our beliefs are generally reliable. But that contradicts models A and Model E where that assumption is specifically left out of the model.
If I came to believe all of these things due to a dream, or due to being a brain in a vat, or due to any other model that on its face offers no suggestion of reliability then I would not think these beliefs were “evidence” at all. Because the beliefs we hold would just be the product of the evil genius’s whim to give us certain beliefs. It might be reliable but who knows? What relevance these beliefs would have to reality would be inscrutable.
We can’t expect our beliefs to be evidence that our belief forming processes are reliable. In order to be logically consistent we need to at the outset accept some model that that posits our beliefs are generally reliable. If we leave that out of the model and then try to prove it is reliable, by the beliefs we hold we will be trying to lift ourselves up and carry ourselves. If we accept a model that doesn’t have our beliefs tracking the truth, then whether or not our beliefs provide evidence of the truth tracking of that model is inscrutable.
“Here’s the problem that I kept coming back to in our previous discussion: at some point the weight of the evidence either supports or contradicts the model. If the evidence contradicts the model, then you are justified in changing your model. In the hypothetical scenario above, the evidence points toward an unguided process. If the only way to hold a reliable belief is to assert that there is a “guiding force” which guarantees reliable beliefs then it would appear that the tables have suddenly turned. Now, in this scenario, it would appear that the guiding force is producing evidence against its own existence, which infers that the guiding force does not actually produce reliable beliefs.”
I am not sure our beliefs can form any sort of “evidence” for the reliability of the model that forms our beliefs. It seems we either accept a model that includes some degree of reliability or we seem to run into logical difficulties. Like I said if the evolution model was modified to say it favors creatures with survival and reproductive fitness *and creatures whose beliefs reliably track reality* then I think this problem goes away. But as long as the model is at best point in a third direction any beliefs we have about how that direction might overlap with reality will be defeated.
“So where do you draw the line? At what point does the weight of the evidence overcome the model? When the evidence screams “UNGUIDED!”, there eventually comes a tipping point where the roles are reversed and the model which assumes a guiding force is the one that looks like it has a crack in its foundation. This is the tension we face. As I look back at that hypothetical scenario it seems to me that we’re not as far away as some may think and so, for me, the scales have tipped.”
It seems to me that this view is like looking at those red parts in that light for long enough and finally in frustration saying the evidence screams the parts are “RED!” The problem is the evidence is tainted in such a way that it’s possible the parts are not red even though we came to believe they are red. No matter how much we look at the parts they will appear red due to the model we have for determining redness. Now the problem with Evolution “Model E” and the brain in the vat “Model A” is they effect all of our beliefs. Because they effect all of our beliefs, how they are effecting our beliefs in relation to reality is inscrutable. That is because we can’t step outside of our beliefs about reality and see reality for what it is. This is why adopting a model for how we came to have beliefs that does not at least to some extent specifically indicate that the beliefs will be reliable is a non-starter.
As before, it seems that everything boils down to what you said here:
First, I’ll point out that this is all looking very much like presuppositional apologetics, which is, in my opinion, another good candidate for the label of “inscrutable”. That aside, I have two points to raise.
Point #1: A model which asserts reliable belief formation at the outset is self-defeating if the resulting beliefs contradict the model. For example, suppose Model G is “God directed evolution so that creatures would generally form reliable beliefs”. Now suppose that those creatures encounter evidence causing them to believe that nobody is directing evolution. Under what circumstances can we still say that Model G is true? Must we reject the evidence because we’re committed to the model?
Point #2: I think that evolution can be said to include a claim that beliefs will generally track reality if you are willing to grant the assumption that reality is defined by “entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world”. In that case, it naturally follows that the entities which more accurately track reality are those which are more likely to reproduce and survive (because they are more likely to successfully perform the interactions which are necessary for reproduction and survival).
Now, you might argue that we can’t define reality this way because that is only derived from the presumption of reliable belief making mechanisms. But I don’t see why this is so different than a properly basic assumption that there exists an author of reliable beliefs. If I strip everything down to Descartes’ “I think, therefore I am”, cannot I not just then say “and my thoughts are generally reliable” without appealing to something else? Why must I immediately give a reason for that reliability and posit some external force? Why can’t I allow myself to discover the reason for the general reliability of my thoughts by virtue of an examination of the evidence I collect?
Thank you very much for the terrific comments. Hopefully by answering them you will better understand where I am coming from with this argument.
Travis said:
“First, I’ll point out that this is all looking very much like presuppositional apologetics, which is, in my opinion, another good candidate for the label of “inscrutable””.
I had never heard of presuppositional apologetics. So I can not really say whether Descartes or Cartesian skeptics generally share certain views with them.
However, I see that one of the criticisms launched at presuppositional apologetics is that they beg the question. I do not believe Cartesian skepticism begs the question.
However I do wonder whether your response is to some extent question begging.
A classic example of question begging is this: How do I know everything in the bible is true? Well look on page 232 of the bible it says it is the word of God and it naturally follows that God tells the truth.
Now I say given that the model of how you came to exists makes no provision that your beliefs are reliable, and in fact seems aimed at something different. Therefore I think there is a logical problem with you treating them as reliable. In response you say well “I hold this belief that the truth of my beliefs overlaps with what evolution aims at therefore my beliefs are reliable.”
In both cases the person begging the question is drawing from the set of things whose reliability is being questioned to prove the reliability of the set.
Travis said:
“Point #1: A model which asserts reliable belief formation at the outset is self-defeating if the resulting beliefs contradict the model.”
I am not sure that I would say the model is self-defeating but I would agree the person is illogical to the extent they hold contradictory beliefs.
“For example, suppose Model G is “God directed evolution so that creatures would generally form reliable beliefs”. Now suppose that those creatures encounter evidence causing them to believe that nobody is directing evolution. Under what circumstances can we still say that Model G is true?”
I would think its a matter of weighing the evidence and reasons for believing that model as to whether you reject it or not. I give a bit of an overview of what I think it means to be rational here:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/01/05/true-and-rational/
“Must we reject the evidence because we’re committed to the model?”
No, I don’t think so.
Let me clarify something. This blog was not intended to be some “proof of God.” It is merely meant to point out some logical baggage that comes with the view that natural selection, all on its own, completely explains our existence. How one deals with that baggage is up to them. They can, like you say below, add assumptions to how we came to exist beyond natural selection. My point is merely to show that believing in natural selection alone is very much like adopting a brain in the vat type skeptical scenario for how we came to exist. People can agree or disagree, or argue its ok to believe in a model like the brain in a vat scenario. And I am very interested in how one deals with the baggage. But really I just want people to think about it. Sadly we both know many people will simply ignore the logical problems raised. They will continue to hold illogical views.
But I don’t try to extend the argument to reach the conclusion “therefore we all must believe in the Christian God.” I am just raising what I think is a valid argument from analogy and wondering how people will respond to it.
“Point #2: I think that evolution can be said to include a claim that beliefs will generally track reality if you are willing to grant the assumption that reality is defined by “entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world”. In that case, it naturally follows that the entities which more accurately track reality are those which are more likely to reproduce and survive (because they are more likely to successfully perform the interactions which are necessary for reproduction and survival).
Now, you might argue that we can’t define reality this way because that is only derived from the presumption of reliable belief making mechanisms. But I don’t see why this is so different than a properly basic assumption that there exists an author of reliable beliefs.”
Yes you are right about the fact that I will argue that if you assume natural selection as the sole model of how you came to exist I will suggest you are in effect begging the question.
However the more important point is that I agree with you the problem can go away if drop the idea that natural selection is *the complete* explanation of our existence and make a few more assumptions.
I am not sure whether the assumptions you make will do the trick. However I think the more important point is that I do agree we can add assumptions to how we came to exist can overcome this problem. The problem only arises when people say natural selection alone, completely, explains our existence. It seems to me we need to add a few more assumptions or we run into an undercutting defeater. Like I said in the original blog:
“Can we include those beliefs that I quoted from Travis and make them part of the Evolutionary model? Yes I suppose we can but they are not part of the model now. Just like we can change model A to be Model B. Model B could be I am created by brain in a vat that is controlled by an evil genius *and* that evil genius gives me reliable beliefs. So Model E could become Model F. Model F is that I came about from a process that selected for things that survived, reproduced, and had reliably true beliefs. But until that is done I think those who adopt the view that they were created by a completely natural selection do indeed have a defeater for all their beliefs.”
There may be a variety of ways that someone can adjust their beliefs and no longer be illogical due to this problem. But ignoring the problem is illogical IMO.
Finally you say this but I added numbers to the questions so I can answer them:
” If I strip everything down to Descartes’ “I think, therefore I am”, 1) cannot I not just then say “and my thoughts are generally reliable” without appealing to something else? 2) Why must I immediately give a reason for that reliability and posit some external force? 3) Why can’t I allow myself to discover the reason for the general reliability of my thoughts by virtue of an examination of the evidence I collect? ”
1) Not according to Cartesian skepticism. Descartes did not just assume he exists. He reasoned that he does knows something is thinking therefore some “res cogitans” translate: thinking thing exists. He said whatever that “thinking thing” is it’s him. At that point he is making no claim to believe he is anything like how he thinks he is. He is not claiming he has the body he thinks he has or anything about the external world outside of his thoughts.
I will give a pitch that you and anyone else reading this give Descartes first meditation a read. He is unquestionably a first class genius not only for his philosophy but also for developing analytic geometry. (the Cartesian coordinate system is named after him) Descartes meditations are fairly short and fairly accessible despite the fact that they were written about 4 centuries ago. Its not like reading Kant or other philosophers who get too involved with the terminology of the day. I just really think you might enjoy reading him first hand.
2) I do not necessarily say you do. If you accept model A or model E you might have a defeater for that belief and your other beliefs about how those external forces effect your beliefs. Descartes took skepticism to its logical extreme and dug himself in a hole. Many philosophers think he never really succeeded in getting out of the hole he dug.
3) If you accept Model A or Model E as a complete explanation of how you came to exist, you would have a defeater for those beliefs regarding the “evidence.”
I would suggest that you are perhaps underestimating the ubiquity and strength of the assumption about the nature of reality. If you see that people are inferring that natural selection alone explains everything then this is only because they are holding an unspoken assumption about reality, where we are “entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world” and that they also assume that everybody else shares this view. I don’t think they’re unreasonable for doing this, but I agree that you’re probably right that most have never taken the time to think about why they hold that assumption. This is obviously the default assumption that we naturally arrive at and even after deeper introspection I would contend that it is the most reasonable conclusion (as we discussed at the start of your comments on my post, where I brought in pragmatism and Ockham’s razor).
Descartes may have dug himself a hole but then he did the very thing I suggested in the second half of Point #2:
No explanation why, no appeal to any external reason – just a properly basic assumption. I contend that once this assumption is made we can proceed to find an explanation for why the assumption might be valid. Yes, that is circular but I don’t see that we have any other option. Some people find an explanation in the supernatural, some find it in natural selection. Either way, you have to do the same thing to get there. You have to rely on your thoughts to explain your thoughts. So yes, you can say that natural selection carries this logical baggage but if you want to be honest about it then you have to admit that this is true for everybody else as well. This isn’t limited to the naturalist.
You say that you’re not arguing for the concept of God but there is a clear inference that God is the better explanation for the reliability of our beliefs – whether you intended that or not. Why? How is it that the “logical baggage” regarding the nature of reality is something less for the theist?
Hi Travis I think we are looking at this pretty much the same.
That is not Descartes last word on whether our sense perceptions actually track real objects. He gives your quote then he gives arguments that rebuts the view that our perceptions cooresponds to real external things and then adds new data (God) and then reworks the argument.
After your quote he gives reasons to doubt that our perceptions truly depict real external objects. He then develops an argument that God must exist. And then by the sixth meditation he gives a summary of what he just went through:
“And, in the first place, I will recall to my mind the things I have hitherto held as true, because perceived by the senses, and the foundations upon which my belief in their truth rested; I will, in the second place, examine the reasons that afterward constrained me to doubt of them; and, finally, I will consider what of them I ought now to believe…. ”
[He then gives a paragraph giving reasons why he thought perception did pertain to real external objects]
But then he says this:
“But, afterward, a wide experience by degrees sapped the faith I had reposed in my senses; for I frequently observed that towers, which at a distance seemed round, appeared square, when more closely viewed, and that colossal figures, raised on the summits of these towers, looked like small statues, when viewed from the bottom of them; and, in other instances without number, I also discovered error in judgments founded on the external senses; and not only in those founded on the external, but even in those that rested on the internal senses; for is there aught more internal than pain? And yet I have sometimes been informed by parties whose arm or leg had been amputated, that they still occasionally seemed to feel pain in that part of the body which they had lost, –a circumstance that led me to think that I could not be quite certain even that any one of my members was affected when I felt pain in it. And to these grounds of doubt I shortly afterward also added two others of very wide generality: the first of them was that I believed I never perceived anything when awake which I could not occasionally think I also perceived when asleep, and as I do not believe that the ideas I seem to perceive in my sleep proceed from objects external to me, I did not any more observe any ground for believing this of such as I seem to perceive when awake; the second was that since I was as yet ignorant of the author of my being or at least supposed myself to be so, I saw nothing to prevent my having been so constituted by nature as that I should be deceived even in matters that appeared to me to possess the greatest truth. And, with respect to the grounds on which I had before been persuaded of the existence of sensible objects, I had no great difficulty in finding suitable answers to them; for as nature seemed to incline me to many things from which reason made me averse, I thought that I ought not to confide much in its teachings. And although the perceptions !of the senses were not dependent on my will, I did not think that I ought on that ground to conclude that they proceeded from things different from myself, since perhaps there might be found in me some faculty, though hitherto unknown to me, which produced them.”
He then comes to the conclusion of why he escapes these doubts here:
“But as God is no deceiver, it is manifest that he does not of himself and immediately communicate those ideas to me, nor even by the intervention of any creature in which their objective reality is not formally, but only eminently, contained. For as he has given me no faculty whereby I can discover this to be the case, but, on the contrary, a very strong inclination to believe that those ideas arise from corporeal objects, I do not see how he could be vindicated from the charge of deceit, if in truth they proceeded from any other source, or were produced by other causes than corporeal things: and accordingly it must be concluded, that corporeal objects exist.”
You say:
“I would suggest that you are perhaps underestimating the ubiquity and strength of the assumption about the nature of reality. If you see that people are inferring that natural selection alone explains everything then this is only because they are holding an unspoken assumption about reality, where we are “entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world” and that they also assume that everybody else shares this view.”
I do not think that assumption alone erases the problem. It does not erase the problem if we think we are came to exist from Model A would you agree?
Like Model A Model E has our being aimed at something different than true beliefs mechanisms. Like I said we can adjust Model A (whim of evil genius) to be model B (whim of evil genius which is the same as tracking reality) and we can adjust Model E (survival and reproduction) to be model F(survival reproduction and beliefs mechanisms that track the truth), but so far as I know the model of evolution has not done that.
“Yes, that is circular but I don’t see that we have any other option. Some people find an explanation in the supernatural, some find it in natural selection. Either way, you have to do the same thing to get there. You have to rely on your thoughts to explain your thoughts. So yes, you can say that natural selection carries this logical baggage but if you want to be honest about it then you have to admit that this is true for everybody else as well. This isn’t limited to the naturalist.”
I definitely agree with the jist of your comment here. I did not write this blog to prove theism has no logical baggage to deal with. It does – your blog discussing the problem of evil is a good example of logical baggage theists have to face. I don’t think a theist would be logical to just ignore the issues raised with the problem of evil. Once made aware of the issue, rational theists should think about that problem and work through a solution (often that solution will not be a pretty as we hoped) or recognize they have epistemic issues (ie they are being irrational). 🙂
The purpose of this blog was really just to give an overview of some of the problems I see with the naturalist worldview and specifically how evolution – when thought of as a complete explanation of how we came to exist- can cause some problems.
“You say that you’re not arguing for the concept of God but there is a clear inference that God is the better explanation for the reliability of our beliefs – whether you intended that or not. Why? How is it that the “logical baggage” regarding the nature of reality is something less for the theist?”
My understanding of how I came to exist is not model E alone. It includes a creator God. So yes, built into the model I accept of how I came to exist is the explicit notion that we have generally reliable beliefs. I do not accept a model of how I came to exist that is analogous to model A. So you are right that this is not really logical baggage that the theist’s world view has to shoulder. Just like the problem of evil presents no problem for atheists.
But I did not necessarily put this argument forward with the thought that it would make atheists become Christians. I just put it forward because I see it is a logical problem and wonder what people will do with it. I imagine that is sort of what you did with your blog on the problem of evil.
Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re as close on this as you think we are. I’m going to split this up into two responses as a way to organize the discussion.
Descartes’ retreat from accepting the reliability of his senses bring us right back to the question of whether the mere possibility of error defeats a model in its entirety. He observed that he was sometimes fooled and so completely discarded the possibility that he could rely on his senses until he came to the conclusion that his sense came from a God who would not deceive him. The evolutionary model, however, recognizes that the process does not guarantee perfection and so grants that we are sometimes fooled. We never did reach common ground on this in the past and perhaps we won’t. I simply don’t understand why the mere possibility of an unreliable outcome undercuts the entire thing. The evolutionary model is a probabilistic paradigm. It makes no sense to say that it fails because it cannot support absolute standards. Descartes does not reject the conclusion that “God is no deceiver” in response to the observation that we are sometimes fooled by our senses. Instead, he claims that our senses are corrupted. Why is the evolutionary model not afforded the same grace?
I contend that it does erase the problem because it establishes the link between “aimed at true beliefs” and “aimed at survival and reproduction”. They are now aiming at the same thing because if reality is defined as a world of entities interacting with each other and the environment, then survival and reproduction is most effectively accomplished by the creatures which most consistently track reality in the course of their interactions. I feel like I’ve said this several times now, but perhaps I never explained how the underlying assumption about the nature of reality ties these together.
That’s the opposite of what I was trying to say. I thought we had reduced the problem down to one of figuring out the next step after “I think, therefore I am”. My contention was that both theists and naturalists have to allow for the reliability of their cognition before they can go any further. All subsequent ideas cannot be used to reach any further conclusions unless you first assume that they’re reliable. This would include the conception of a creator God who authors reliable beliefs.
I’m detecting another underlying assumption at play here. Are you a rationalist or empiricist? This is why the posts I wrote to define my epistemology included a section on becoming a thinker. Descartes says “Ego sum, ego existo” but doesn’t bother to reflect on how it was that he came to know those words and their meaning. It is as if he just popped into existence with all the knowledge in place. Surely he would not grant that his entire life up to that point had been a deception. If we concede this then the universal observation that we seem to gradually acquire the content which forms our thoughts must hold some merit. And where does that content come from? From none other than our sensory experience. So it would appear that sensory perception is primary to thought, not secondary. If you’re a rationalist then you can just reject this out of hand, but if you’re not a rationalist then this ties back in to the discussion as follows: if sensory experience is a prerequisite to thought then it is nonsensical to, on the basis of thought, deem our sensory experience as completely unreliable. You are pretty much forced to allow that sensory experience is either generally reliable from the outset or to claim that our thought content is not actually informed by our sensory experience (rationalism). Descartes chose the latter, I choose the former.
Hi Travis
You say:
“Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re as close on this as you think we are….
Descartes’ retreat from accepting the reliability of his senses bring us right back to the question of whether the mere possibility of error defeats a model in its entirety.”
Ok I thought we were closer but it appears not. The argument is not that the mere possibility of error defeats the model entirely. The problem is the only thing we know about our creation on model A and model E is that it is driven toward something different than the production truth tracking beliefs. In model A it is driven by the whim of the genius tweaking the brain and in Model E it is driven by reproduction/survival. I am not nitpicking the model due to it having “the mere possibility of error.” The problem is the model is it is driving in a different direction than truth.
I still don’t know whether you agree that accepting model A would be a defeater for our other beliefs.
I would like to see where exactly you disagree with the argument. My argument in skeletal form is that:
1) Accepting model A creates a defeater for our beliefs.
2) Model E, is the model we accept, if we think Darwinian evolution/natural selection completely explains our existence.
3) Model E is similar to model A in the ways which make model a defeater.
4) Therefore model E also creates a defeater for our beliefs.
Can you indicate which premise you disagree with? Or do you think the argument is invalid? Or both?
You say:
“That’s the opposite of what I was trying to say. I thought we had reduced the problem down to one of figuring out the next step after “I think, therefore I am”. My contention was that both theists and naturalists have to allow for the reliability of their cognition before they can go any further.”
What we think happens after “I think therefore I am” is going to depend on how we, as some sort of “thinking thing,” came to exist. If we exist due to the dream of some jellyfish or due to the tweaking of a brain in a vat or some other model which is driven in directions different than true beliefs, that should have a major impact on how we judge the reliability of our cognition.
To just claim we have to allow for the reliability of our cognition is like hiding your head in the sand and pretending the problem doesn’t exist. It’s like the theist saying – well I just believe God has all the various omni traits and that he is all good and that evil exists.
You say:
“All subsequent ideas cannot be used to reach any further conclusions unless you first assume that they’re reliable. This would include the conception of a creator God who authors reliable beliefs.”
That may or may not be true. But that doesn’t change the fact that what model we select for how we came to exist changes the likelihood of how reliable our beliefs are. It might be something we have to conclude at some point, but based on certain models of how we came to exist that conclusion seems to create a contradiction. My argument is that accepting Model A or Model E for how we came to exist creates a contradiction to the conclusion our beliefs are reliable.
“I’m detecting another underlying assumption at play here. Are you a rationalist or empiricist? This is why the posts I wrote to define my epistemology included a section on becoming a thinker. Descartes says “Ego sum, ego existo” but doesn’t bother to reflect on how it was that he came to know those words and their meaning. It is as if he just popped into existence with all the knowledge in place. Surely he would not grant that his entire life up to that point had been a deception.”
Actually that is exactly what he is trying determine. And indeed he argues that if the thinking thing that he was, was simply the product of a dream, or the product of a deceptive God that created his sensations, he would say it was a deception. It is only because he rejects those models that he believes he can know his senses are telling him accurate things about the external world.
I’m not sure but perhaps you think these sorts of philosophical questions are just silly. But if you are the type of person who thinks it’s important examine what you believe, and why, these questions become important.
As to whether I am a rationalist or empiricist I never really took a strong position on that. With respect to logical laws I tend to side with rationalism perhaps regarding natural sciences I tend to be empiricist. But its something I haven’t thought about in depth. I don’t think it really plays a large role in these extreme Cartesian skeptical scenarios, at least no one ever claimed it did as far as I know.
As to whether Descartes correctly used language it wouldn’t matter. Even if he was a thinking thing that was improperly using language he would still exist as a thinking thing.
You say:
“Descartes’ retreat from accepting the reliability of his senses bring us right back to the question of whether the mere possibility of error defeats a model in its entirety. He observed that he was sometimes fooled and so completely discarded the possibility that he could rely on his senses until he came to the conclusion that his sense came from a God who would not deceive him. The evolutionary model, however, recognizes that the process does not guarantee perfection and so grants that we are sometimes fooled. We never did reach common ground on this in the past and perhaps we won’t. I simply don’t understand why the mere possibility of an unreliable outcome undercuts the entire thing.”
Just to be clear model A, and model E do not just raise “the mere possibility of error.” They are aimed at something different than truth. It’s worse than saying your are aiming at Billy the Kid but still think you will reliably shoot Jesse James. You might believe bad guys tend to hang out together so shooting in that general direction will l generally do the trick.
I say it’s worse than that because it’s impossible to separate the secondary beliefs from the influence of the evolutionary forces which go in a different direction. How much different they are is inscrutable because we cannot step outside our beliefs to see. Maybe the directions overlap but that is inscrutable once we understand our beliefs will follow a direction different than truth.
If you want to make an argument along the lines:
1) if God created us we would have perfect knowledge
2) We do not have perfect knowledge
Therefore God does not exist.
That’s ok. But it’s really a different argument than what I present here and it will likely take us off track from the material I presented in the blog.
I said:
“I do not think that assumption alone [“that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world”] erases the problem. It does not erase the problem if we think we are came to exist from Model A would you agree?”
You said:
“I contend that it does erase the problem because it establishes the link between “aimed at true beliefs” and “aimed at survival and reproduction”. They are now aiming at the same thing because if reality is defined as a world of entities interacting with each other and the environment, then survival and reproduction is most effectively accomplished by the creatures which most consistently track reality in the course of their interactions. I feel like I’ve said this several times now, but perhaps I never explained how the underlying assumption about the nature of reality ties these together.”
I am not sure you answered my question. Do you deny model A creates a defeater, or are you conceding Model A does create a defeater for our beliefs but that model E is different. I asked if you think if that assumption erases the problem, if we came to exist from model A. You say it does but then your answer seems to talk about model E. That’s why I am still not sure how you would answer the question I asked.
In either case it should be noted that you are making several more claims in the paragraph I quoted from you, beyond just “we are entities interacting the each other and the environment in an external world” You are making claims about how those interactions in the assumed external world would operate. These represent further beliefs that you hold and they are not themselves part of model A or Model E. I do think these beliefs would be undercut if we accepted model A. I wonder if you would agree.
It feels like we’re talking past each other a lot here, so I’m going to reset. Let’s try scaling back and doing something like the Socratic method. This is your blog, so you get to ask the questions. I’ll just answer, or ask a clarifying question if necessary.
I’m going to assume that your first question is:
I agree that premise #1 is a defeater for subsequent beliefs if the starting point is limited to the claim that “This evil genius can instantly give you any beliefs he wants”, with no indication of the frequency or probability of those beliefs matching reality.
I reject premise #2 as a sort of “order of operations” error. The evolutionary model only exists subsequent to the acceptance of a certain formulation of reality in which we are entities which interact with each other and an external world. So Model E is incomplete because it does not account for the underlying assumptions about the nature of reality.
I accept premise #3 if Model E is left as is. However, if Model E is expanded according to my rejection of premise #2 then it implicitly assigns a high probability to the formation of reliable beliefs and that is a claim which is not included in Model A.
Travis thank you for the reply. I think that narrows things down quite a bit and at least we have a good idea where we differ if we get no further than that I’m calling this a blogging win.
Ok let me quote the part you disagree:
“I reject premise #2 as a sort of “order of operations” error. The evolutionary model only exists subsequent to the acceptance of a certain formulation of reality in which we are entities which interact with each other and an external world. So Model E is incomplete because it does not account for the underlying assumptions about the nature of reality.”
In my original blog I might have said 2 things that might be relevant to this objection. Actually I think it might be 2 objections. The first objection would be what you call the order of operations error – which I take to mean a sort of timing error. The evolutionary model only comes “subsequent” our beliefs about the external world.
The second objection is one of definition. You think the evolutionary model is not as narrow as model E.
Ok with respect to the first sort of objection I said this in the original blog:
“Now perhaps someone would say that it’s not really that the evolutionary model comes before our belief that our beliefs are reliable. First we believe our senses and beliefs are reliable and it’s only after that we accept the evolution model. My response would be what if someone came to believe model A in the same way? That is they looked around the world around them and for whatever reason they too decided they must be a brain in a vat. I don’t think it matters how you get the model in your beliefs, once it’s there it works as a defeater.”
In other words I don’t think it matters when we or how we come to accept model A or model E once we do (for whatever reason) we have a problem.
But now lets see if Model E is a correct formulation of the evolutionary model.
In my blog I agreed that Model E could be modified. I suggested that model F would not have this problem. I said this:
“Can we include those beliefs that I quoted from Travis and make them part of the Evolutionary model? Yes I suppose we can but they are not part of the model now. Just like we can change model A to be Model B. Model B could be I am created by brain in a vat that is controlled by an evil genius *and* that evil genius gives me reliable beliefs. So Model E could become Model F. Model F is that I came about from a process that selected for things that survived, reproduced, and had reliably true beliefs. But until that is done I think those who adopt the view that they were created by a completely natural selection do indeed have a defeater for all their beliefs.”
You seem to be rejecting model E and suggesting a modification that seems less ad hoc than model F. Let’s call your model Model T. (for Travis, of course) So Model T would have these claims about how we came to exist:
1) that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world
2) we are the product of natural selection which selects for survival and reproduction.
First, thing I would say is I question whether 1 in any form is in the evolutionary model. I never heard it stated, but let’s say it is perhaps scientists would be fine with adding it in.
Does that addition solve the problem?
You say it does. You say this:
“I contend that it does erase the problem because it establishes the link between “aimed at true beliefs” and “aimed at survival and reproduction”. They are now aiming at the same thing because if reality is defined as a world of entities interacting with each other and the environment, then survival and reproduction is most effectively accomplished by the creatures which most consistently track reality in the course of their interactions. I feel like I’ve said this several times now, but perhaps I never explained how the underlying assumption about the nature of reality ties these together.”
The problem with this explanation is you are no longer merely expressing the belief “that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world” You are expressing other beliefs that you hold. These other beliefs are beliefs about how we are interacting with the external world. Now you might hold those beliefs very strongly. Everyone you ask might hold those beliefs very strongly. You might even ask me if I hold those beliefs.
My answer is this, If we accept Model T then the following analysis seems appropriate:
Those beliefs (or mechanisms that create beliefs like those) either support survival or reproduction or they don’t. If those beliefs support survival and reproduction then I would likely believe they are true even if they weren’t. Unless I can step outside myself and my beliefs it is impossible for me to evaluate to what extent forces of survival and reproduction are having on me relative to those beliefs.
I fully grant that those beliefs seem very natural and strongly held. That is why I think its important to use the various analogies to understand the situation.
Lets say for whatever reason everyone said the parts are red. They all accepted that the lights would make the parts look red even if they weren’t. But they had believed the parts were red long before they realized that about the lighting. Lets say lots of people including yourself had come to believe the parts were red. But you and a few others seem to be the only ones who seems to clearly draw this connection between the red lights being an undercutter for your belief that the parts are actually red. Lots of people all say yep the parts are red. What why don’t you think they are red? What color do you think they are? And the only thing you can say is that if we accept a model where we agree that the parts would appear red even if they weren’t then I don’t think we can trust any sort of beliefs that stem from the appearance of redness.
Although the logic is the same this sort of argument gets more difficult to convince others of when we talk about defeaters for *all* of our beliefs. Its not because the logic is any different. The logic is the same. It’s because people hold some beliefs very strongly. Its very hard for them to let go and accept that this analysis is in fact undercutting them. This is why I said at the outset, although I think the argument has merit, I do not think it will be convincing to many people.
Let me give another illustration:
Consider the case of Model A. You agreed with my 3rd statement “Model E is similar to model A in the ways which make model A defeater.” You just thought model E needed the claim “that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world” to that model. Lets add that same claim to model A and see if that changes model A being a defeater lets call this model U:
Model U:
1) “that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world”
2) That our beliefs are the product of a genius tweaking a brain in a vat.
It seems to me that no matter what beliefs we come up with on this model they still face an undercutting defeater. The problem is the same for both model T and model U. Namely the only filter or screen for whether a belief is held or not is something that is different than truth. Someone who adopts model U might have very very strong beliefs that they very strongly believe leads to the conclusion that their beliefs are reliable. But don’t you agree on model U there is still that defeater for those very strongly held beliefs?
Joe,
There’s a lot in that response, so I’m going to try to just strip out the questions and answer those.
I previously suggested that I would disagree with this conclusion. Even Model A would eventually become justified (and thus not a defeater) given enough evidence and an absence of contradiction.
Regarding the red light discussion, I couldn’t tell if there was a question for me to answer. Please restate it if there is.
Yes, I agree that Model U still has a defeater but reliable beliefs do not implicitly follow in Model U like they do in Model E. It isn’t an apt analogy. As I stated above, it is possible under Model A (or Model U) to find sufficient evidence for why our beliefs would be reliable and thus validate the pragmatic assumption to trust our cognition from the outset.
Travis thanks for you comments.
Here you say:
“Even Model A would eventually become justified (and thus not a defeater) given enough evidence and an absence of contradiction.”
And this:
“As I stated above, it is possible under Model A (or Model U) to find sufficient evidence for why our beliefs would be reliable and thus validate the pragmatic assumption to trust our cognition from the outset.”
But before with respect to model A you said:
“I agree that premise #1 [model A] is a defeater for subsequent beliefs if the starting point is limited to the claim that “This evil genius can instantly give you any beliefs he wants”, with no indication of the frequency or probability of those beliefs matching reality.”
I am not exactly sure what to make of these.
Are you thinking you would have evidence outside of your beliefs about what is evidence? It seems to me, that we can not step outside our own beliefs and analyze evidence. So once we have a defeater for all of our beliefs we will not be able to grasp onto some sort of evidence to get us out of the woods.
You also say this:
“Yes, I agree that Model U still has a defeater but reliable beliefs do not implicitly follow in Model U like they do in Model E. It isn’t an apt analogy.”
After these statements I really am not sure whether you think model U and model A create a defeater for our beliefs or not.
Here you also argue that the analogy is not apt but above you agreed that “Model E is similar to model A in the ways which make model A defeater.” At least as I stated model E. You objected to the formulation of model E because it lacked this:
“The evolutionary model only exists subsequent to the acceptance of a certain formulation of reality in which we are entities which interact with each other and an external world”
So I added “we are entities which interact with each other and an external world.” to model E and called it model T. I added the same language to Model A and called it model U.
So if you agree that model E and model A are similar with respect to the ways that they both create a defeater, why does adding the statement “we are entities which interact with each other and an external world.” solve the problems in one case and not the other?
In those later comments I inadvertently snuck some additional assumptions into Model A. When I said that Model A could become justified I was presuming a model where I did not just pop into existence and immediately hold only the beliefs in Model A (as is evidenced when I said you could “validate the pragmatic assumption to trust our cognition from the outset”). I had only accepted a defeater in Model A “if the starting point is limited to the claim that ‘This evil genius can instantly give you any beliefs he wants’, with no indication of the frequency or probability of those beliefs matching reality”. Clearly I did not hold myself to this constraint when I made the claims about Model A becoming justified. So, if I am restricted to an a priori belief in Model A with no backstory on how I came to believe Model A and no information about the inherent reliability of the beliefs generated by Model A then, yes, it is a defeater.
Because in Model E this addition interacts with the original model to infer that beliefs are generally reliable (as previously described). In Model A the addition does nothing of the sort; beliefs still arise at the whim of the evil genius. My agreement that “Model E is similar to model A in the ways which make model A defeater” was predicated on there being no additional information added to either model.
You said:
“In those later comments I inadvertently snuck some additional assumptions into Model A. When I said that Model A could become justified I was presuming a model where I did not just pop into existence and immediately hold only the beliefs in Model A (as is evidenced when I said you could “validate the pragmatic assumption to trust our cognition from the outset”). I had only accepted a defeater in Model A “if the starting point is limited to the claim that ‘This evil genius can instantly give you any beliefs he wants’, with no indication of the frequency or probability of those beliefs matching reality”. Clearly I did not hold myself to this constraint when I made the claims about Model A becoming justified. So, if I am restricted to an a priori belief in Model A with no backstory on how I came to believe Model A and no information about the inherent reliability of the beliefs generated by Model A then, yes, it is a defeater.”
Ok model A is indeed a situation where your beliefs are what the evil Genius wills you to have. But that is not the only belief you will hold. You can believe many other things. Also note the evil genius may indeed give you true beliefs. In fact the vast majority of your beliefs just might be true. And again you may think you notice things about the universe that make you believe that indeed the evil genius must give you reliable beliefs. It’s certainly possible that you would come to hold that belief.
Also I am not sure model A has us popping into existence any more than model E or any other model including theistic ones.
Finally you are not restricted to an a priori belief in model A. it doesn’t matter how you come to believe model A is how you came to exist. Don’t you agree that your belief in model A would be a defeater for other beliefs whether you came to believe it a priori or a posteriori? Perhaps your perceptions linked to the body of Bob Dole would make you believe model A.
You said:
“Because in Model E this addition interacts with the original model to infer that beliefs are generally reliable (as previously described). In Model A the addition does nothing of the sort; beliefs still arise at the whim of the evil genius. My agreement that “Model E is similar to model A in the ways which make model A defeater” was predicated on there being no additional information added to either model.”
I added your assumption to model A and called it model U. I added your additional assumption to model E and called it model T.
So Model T would have these claims about how we came to exist:
1) that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world
2) we are the product of natural selection which selects for survival and reproduction.
Model U:
1) “that we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world”
2) That our beliefs are the product of a genius tweaking a brain in a vat.
Your additional assumption is the first statement in both models. I do not see how it logically leads to the conclusion that either model is more reliable. I think you have to add other beliefs into either model if you want to draw the conclusion that our beliefs are reliable. Which you can do, but of course you are then admitting that natural selection alone is not a complete explanation of how humans came to exist from lower nonthinking life forms. You are adding assumptions.
Actually, I don’t agree. In the a priori case I have no epistemic basis for my beliefs. In the a posteriori case, I can start with the pragmatic assumption that my senses are reliable (because I have no other choice) and then use my memories and sensory experience to determine what I am, how I came to be and whether I should continue believing that my senses are reliable. Sticking with the world of Model A, if I collect evidence and come to find that I am a brain in a vat and that an evil genius is manipulating my beliefs at his whim, then I’m screwed. However, if I find that I am a brain in a vat and that there is a massive network reliably linking the brain to a body, then it would seem that this is really no different than discovering that I am a brain contained within a body and linked to sense organs. This second scenario doesn’t seem to tell us anything about whether our beliefs are reliable, so I continue holding my pragmatic position regarding the reliabilty of my beliefs until further information comes in that tells me otherwise.
I don’t think that I’m adding assumptions. I am drawing an inference based on the two claims: If we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world and we are the product of natural selection which selects for survival and reproduction, then the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction. You’re welcome to point out where I’ve added an assumption but it’s not clear to me.
” In the a posteriori case, I can start with the pragmatic assumption that my senses are reliable (because I have no other choice) and then use my memories and sensory experience to determine what I am, how I came to be and whether I should continue believing that my senses are reliable.”
I am not sure what you mean you have “no other choice” but to view your senses as reliable. The whole point of skepticism and Descartes meditation was to question everything and see what sorts of conclusions we could reach. In that meditation Descartes clearly established that logically we might indeed be thinking things that do not have reliable senses. The brain in a vat is just a modern variation of the dreaming and evil god scenario.
We can come to believe the parts are red a posteriori and we can also then find that a posteriori belief is unreliable.
But anway you say:
“Sticking with the world of Model A, if I collect evidence and come to find that I am a brain in a vat and that an evil genius is manipulating my beliefs at his whim, then I’m screwed.”
Ok here we agree but I want to make sure we agree for the same reasons.
You understand that just because the evil genius is manipulating our beliefs according to his will that does not necessarily mean they are unreliable right? His will might, after all, closely correspond with reality. Are you saying we are screwed just because the mere possibility of error? What is it that makes us screwed at that point?
In my opinion we are screwed at that point because we realize that our beliefs are going through a filter that is different than one that tracks truth. It tracks the evil geniuses will. Yes it’s possible the evil genius’s will matches reality. It’s even possible that he must necessarily do this for some reason or other. But we can never step outside the beliefs the filter generates to see how it is actually working in relation to reality.
“I don’t think that I’m adding assumptions. I am drawing an inference based on the two claims: If we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world and we are the product of natural selection which selects for survival and reproduction, then the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction. You’re welcome to point out where I’ve added an assumption but it’s not clear to me.”
The statement of your belief:
“then the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction.” is another assumption that you hold and it does not logically follow from your 2 other statements.
Premise 1)”we are entities interacting with each other and the environment in an external world”
Premise 2)”we are the product of natural selection which selects for survival and reproduction,”
Conclusion: “then the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction.”
This is a non sequitur. The conclusion does not logically follow from the premises. Your conclusion is really just another “claim.” It’s not a conclusion that logically follows from the first 2 premises.
You can add that conclusion as a third assertion in the model if you want. We can call this “Model T + the belief our beliefs are reliable” But its not part of any theory of natural selection I ever heard and I think it’s pretty ad hoc.
Now in saying that, I am not denying allot of people believe that conclusion. They might believe it very strongly. But logically (if model t is how we came to exist) I can see that belief is a product of a mechanism that produces beliefs that tend to lead to reproduction and survival, not truth. Hence if I am objective I have to concede that I would like hold that belief whether it was true or not. That’s why it is defeated like any other beliefs.
Well, I do have other choices but they’re futile. This is why I previously brought up empiricism vs rationalism. If I strip away all assumptions and try to work my way back up from “I think, therefore I am” I don’t see how I can get anywhere unless I first assume that my senses are reliable. Why? Because it appears that my knowledge of everything else has come to me from my senses. If it didn’t come from my senses then it can’t be trusted because that would mean that reality and my belief are in contradiction. So either I trust my senses and move on, or I assume that my body of knowledge popped into existence and cannot be trusted, or I curl up in a ball and dismiss any possibility of truth.
Because our beliefs are completely arbitrary. There’s nothing to tell us that they are even probably true.
I honestly thought that the inference was obvious but I guess I need to unpack it further.
Key mechanisms for survival:
1) Acquire energy from external sources (i.e., eat)
2) Avoid being crushed, eaten, frozen, etc… Avoid poisonous things, contaminated things, pointy things, etc…
Key mechanisms for reproduction:
1) Survive at least until capable of reproduction (see above).
2) Find a mate and then, well, you know.
3) Help offspring survive (see above).
How are all of these things accomplished? Through interactions with other entities and the external world. So, the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to survive and reproduce.
I disagree. It does not mean they are in contradiction. It might mean the interaction between your beliefs and reality is not what you thought but it doesn’t mean they are in contradiction.
Descartes thought he climbed out of the the skeptical hole he dug. I assume you don’t agree with him on that.
No the beliefs are not completely arbitrary. They would be based on the will of the evil genius. His will might indeed mean we are getting reliable beliefs. Just like you have acquired beliefs about model T yielding true beliefs someone with model U or model A also might acquire similar beliefs. Like I mentioned in my original blog:
“Well let’s say you accept that “model A” is how you came to exist. Now under Model A though you also come to believe that all your beliefs are reliable and mostly true. How? It doesn’t really matter. But for example, let’s just say, on earth you see through Bob Dole’s eyes that there are evil geniuses manipulating brains in vats there on earth. Now it seems those brains in vats create minds that believe that they are observing people on some other planet as well. Maybe Ork or other parts of earth or wherever. But the thing is this. You very strongly believe that the evil geniuses who give the brains in the vats unreliable beliefs tend to die off quickly often even immediately. Therefore you come to believe that most minds created by brains in a vat have reliable beliefs. Therefore you conclude that even though you are a brain in a vat you can reasonably think your beliefs are reliable.”
So as a brain in the vat you can indeed develop beliefs that make you think your senses and beliefs are reliable. Just like you did with model T.
I pointed out that the 2 statements of model T did not logically entail your conclusion. You might believe everything you say here. I and everyone else who reads this blog might believe it as well. But there is no logical entailment from the 2 statements of your model. Moreover it is not self evident. We know its not self evident because we can easily imagine cases where it is not true.
For example when I am dreaming I am the product of natural selection. I am also interacting with my environment (breathing for example) but I do not think my beliefs are reliable.
Another example if I were a brain in a vat. I could be the product of natural selection, I am interacting with my environment – (the evil genius is tweaking my brain) yet I do not have reliable beliefs.
A third example would be a jellyfish like creature that dreams all day. It is interacting with its environment, say by floating around catching its pray through reflexes, but its beliefs are not reliable.
So yes we all might believe what you said is true. But if we are rational and objective we will acknowledge that what you said does not logically follow from the 2 parts of model T, and what you said is not self evident. The connections you envision between our beliefs and reality are really just beliefs themselves. If we are objective we will recognize that if model T is how we came to exist we would tend to hold those beliefs if it helped up survive and reproduce regardless of whether they were true. And so the belief has a defeater.
I do recognize that people hold the beliefs in your reasoning very strongly. That is why I don’t think this sort of argument will be convincing. (even though it is logically sound as far as I can see)
This might not be a persuasive argument for you. But there are other arguments based on how you responded that I think you might find have more pull. These include the argument about whether our beliefs about morality are reliable. It seems to me that we can accept your line of argument about how our senses might be reliable but our beliefs about morals will still be completely unreliable. That is really the argument that I am most interested in. This argument is really more of a sideline and my extrapolating on it is more just an explanation of how I see it. I think I may have better luck convincing others with the second argument from this blog.
Perhaps that is true. He initially dismisses everything external on the basis that it could be a figment of his imagination but then claims that God cannot be such a figment. I don’t understand why. I’ll leave it to you whether you want to trace this down into the ontological argument.
Having said this, please note that I don’t consider myself to be in the same situation. I exchange Descartes extreme skepticism for pragmatism – assume that the default conclusion is true and then carry on as such until it no longer holds up.
I meant that they would be arbitrary from my perspective. Note that I had identified two scenarios: one where I find evidence to distrust my senses and one where I don’t. My comment that the beliefs would be arbitrary was only applied to the scenario where the evidence tells me my senses are unreliable, in which case I must discard my original assumption that they are reliable.
Yes, the inference is abductive, not deductive. I may have confused things by using the if..then structure but I tried to avoid absolutes in my language: “the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction”. The lack of absolute certainty does not mean we discard it. Inference to the best explanation is often the best we can do.
I would reject that there is a defeater if the beliefs which helped us survive and reproduce also have a high probability of being true, which is the point of contention above.
You must show that the premises are necessarily true before it is logically sound. I don’t agree that my original objections have been eliminated, but perhaps we would just continue going in circles trying to do so.
I’m open to that discussion if you want but I can’t say at this time that I have a particular position to defend. I’ll let you direct it if you want to go down that road.
Upon reviewing my comment I see that I need to clarify something before it is interpreted as a contradiction. In reference to Model A I said that in “the scenario where the evidence tells me my senses are unreliable … I must discard my original assumption that they are reliable.” and then regarding the inference I drew from Model T I said that “The lack of absolute certainty does not mean we discard it.”.
Here’s the difference: in the Model A scenario the assumption that my senses are generally reliable is substantially downgraded (say from 99% down to 1%). In the Model T scenario the assumption that my senses are generally reliable is unchanged (depending on where I place the initial level of reliability).
Hopefully that helps.
“Perhaps that is true. He initially dismisses everything external on the basis that it could be a figment of his imagination but then claims that God cannot be such a figment. I don’t understand why. I’ll leave it to you whether you want to trace this down into the ontological argument.
Having said this, please note that I don’t consider myself to be in the same situation. I exchange Descartes extreme skepticism for pragmatism – assume that the default conclusion is true and then carry on as such until it no longer holds up.”
You are correct he pulls himself out with the ontological argument. I will wait until I find it convincing before I try to convince others.
So its true I do not remove the doubts caused by the skeptic based on the basis of any ontological argument for God. So to some extent I am still stuck with the possibility that perhaps one of the skeptical scenarios holds true. The atheist who accepts model E not only risks the possibility that a skeptical scenario holds true – they adopt one. They fully accept the idea that the goal of our mental functions is something other than true beliefs. Yes like you they also *believe* that truth happens to correspond with that different goal. But IMO that belief is undercut.
At least I do not embrace a skeptical model of how I came to exist. I believe my mental faculties are indeed geared to track truth and not for some different purpose that may or may not have an overlap with truth.
I would also say I am not sure pragmatism dictates you just ignore the the problems this model causes the reliability of your beliefs. It seems to me that there is a contradiction in believing that your beliefs are reliable and accepting model E (or model T) It might be that it is intolerable to accept the idea that our beliefs are unreliable. But then you should reject model E or Model T. (Here by the way I am speaking on the false assumption that you found the same contradiction I do. I realize though that I have not convinced you of this, and don’t mean to be presumptuous. Its just that if you were to think that even if you found a contradiction some idea of pragmatism would save you I do not think it would. )
“Yes, the inference is abductive, not deductive. I may have confused things by using the if..then structure but I tried to avoid absolutes in my language: “the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction”. The lack of absolute certainty does not mean we discard it. Inference to the best explanation is often the best we can do.”
Ok I just pointed out that it is not logically implied in any deductive sense and it is not self evident. You *believe* that inference is a good one. But my point is that it is just a “belief” and is defeated by the model T which at best shows our beliefs will follow something different than truth. If you want to build that belief “the entities which most reliably track the external world are more likely to be selected for survival and reproduction” into the model of evolution and how you came to exist ok. At that point you significantly narrowed the gap between the theistic model. But if you leave that claim out of your model of how came to exist then you have a problem. I would point out that this claim is not part of any theory of evolution I have ever read in a science text book or website.
“I meant that they would be arbitrary from my perspective. Note that I had identified two scenarios: one where I find evidence to distrust my senses and one where I don’t. My comment that the beliefs would be arbitrary was only applied to the scenario where the evidence tells me my senses are unreliable, in which case I must discard my original assumption that they are reliable.”
If you believe your existence comes about from being a brain in a vat I do not think you could then find any evidence to justify the believing in the reliability of your senses. Thats because you can not step outside you beliefs to evaluate the evidence. Likewise if you believe you came to exist in model E or model T you can not step outside your beliefs to evaluate evidence. Evidence always need to be interpreted as evidence to be evidence. Your beliefs that this or that perception “suggests” or “infers” some other conclusion will always be defeated if you accept a skeptical scenario for your existence.
“You must show that the premises are necessarily true before it is logically sound.”
The premises don’t need to be “necessarily true.” Just true.
For an argument to be sound the premises need to be true and the truth of the conclusion must necessarily follow from the truth of the premises. Certain logical rules like modus ponens and modus tollens are necessary truths. But the premises just need to be plain old true.
I think we’re in agreement here. Pragmatism isn’t the final solution; it’s just the first step to getting out of the hole and allowing ourselves to progress further. A key difference may be that I have a hard time seeing how this doesn’t apply to everybody. Regardless, once this step is taken we should evaluate whether the assumption remains consistent. This may come from finding evidence for a God who wouldn’t deceive his creation, or it may come from finding evidence for a process that rewards the proper tracking of reality.
I think you’re probably right, but I would also suspect that those who subscribe to the model are making this assumption every time they consider how a particular trait may be advantageous.
Perhaps, but only because those sources aren’t trying to explain why we can trust our beliefs; they’re trying to explain the process. This omission has no bearing on whether the question can be answered in a manner that is consistent with the model.
I assume that a “skeptical scenario” is any scenario which does not a priori explain why our beliefs are reliable. On this it seems that we will not agree and there’s probably little value in belaboring the point much further. That said, if you’re up for it I would be interested in your explanation of how you escape the problem. I don’t think we’ve seen this yet.
Travis thanks for you comments on this. I enjoy discussing philosophy with you.
“I think we’re in agreement here. Pragmatism isn’t the final solution; it’s just the first step to getting out of the hole and allowing ourselves to progress further. A key difference may be that I have a hard time seeing how this doesn’t apply to everybody. Regardless, once this step is taken we should evaluate whether the assumption remains consistent. This may come from finding evidence for a God who wouldn’t deceive his creation, or it may come from finding evidence for a process that rewards the proper tracking of reality.”
“That said, if you’re up for it I would be interested in your explanation of how you escape the problem. I don’t think we’ve seen this yet.”
Let me give you my own view. I agree that since I really do not accept the ontological argument I am somewhat stuck in the hole Descartes dug. That is I admit I have no evidence I am not a brain in a vat or dreaming or the result of some other model that would aim my beliefs at something other than truth.
I reject that I am the product of one of these skeptic models because such a belief system seems intolerable to me. So it is not based on evidence that I reject these skeptical scenarios but I do reject them. I happen to believe that I am a person who God had a hand in creating and who God wanted to be able to understand at least some things about the world I am in.
It seems to me that a naturalist who accepts model e doesn’t do this. He actually accepts a model that creates a defeater for all his beliefs. That is I think model E and Model A are about the same. I don’t think model T really gets us out of the defeater either.
So while I do not have evidence to get out of the hole Descartes digs, at least I do not accept a model that seems to contradict my belief that there is no defeater for all my beliefs. I think the naturalist who believes he came from model E actually accepts a model that contradicts his belief that his beliefs are reliable and undefeated.
So while I am guilty of holding beliefs without evidence, at least I am not guilty of holding contradictory beliefs. To wit, I think the person who accepts model E (or model A for that matter) as to how he came to exist and also believes his beliefs are reliable and not defeated is actually holding contradictory beliefs. IMO, Model E and Model A create a defeater for the reliability of our beliefs.
“I think you’re probably right, but I would also suspect that those who subscribe to the model are making this assumption every time they consider how a particular trait may be advantageous.”
You might be right but I am not so sure. Darwin didn’t seem to make that assumption. I also think allot of people in science would not be at all happy of adding that assumption into the evolutionary model. I think they would really frown on the idea, like its mixing philosophy (yuck) with their delicious science. It also seems a fairly ad hoc change to the model. But like I said I can’t say for sure.
I think many people who study evolution would indeed *believe* what you did about the survival value of having true beliefs about their physical surroundings. I don’t think most would think about the fact that model E might be a defeater for that belief and other beliefs they hold. And I don’t think most people would think they should build their belief, about how truth tracking must overlap with survival, into the model of how they came to exist.
To some extent my version of this argument may just seem niggling. And that might be a valid critique. But I still think it is worthwhile to think it through. Because it sort of forces us to think exactly why we might be able to have reliable beliefs on the various evolutionary models. When we start talking about moral truths and beliefs about them, I think we may see those reasons, no longer apply.
Joe,
I appreciate the discussion as well. Only good can come from putting our views forward and seeing if they can withstand criticism.
I think there’s a typo in there somewhere. Regardless, I know what you’re saying and this horse has been beat to death so I’m not going to counter. I only hope that our discussion has at least expanded your appreciation for how somebody could have examined their epistemology under an unguided evolutionary paradigm and come away feeling comfortable and rational.
I disagree. I would even suggest that it isn’t a change to the model but rather that it is a natural consequence of the picture of reality that it is deeply engrained in the model, embedded within the concept of selective advantage.
I messed up one of my closing blockquotes. Here’s what the second half should look like:
I agree on all counts.
If not on evidence, how did you come to acquire this belief?
“I think there’s a typo in there somewhere. Regardless, I know what you’re saying and this horse has been beat to death so I’m not going to counter. I only hope that our discussion has at least expanded your appreciation for how somebody could have examined their epistemology under an unguided evolutionary paradigm and come away feeling comfortable and rational.”
Yes a typo one too many “un”s.
Yes we beat that dead horse pretty badly.
The argument you and others make is one of the reasons I prefer the argument about moral beliefs as opposed to all beliefs. I just put a new blog up and attempts to argue that your reasoning won’t apply to moral beliefs.
As for this argument I still think the EAAN has the upper hand but I often feel like we are arguing whether the chicken or the egg came first.
“I disagree. I would even suggest that it isn’t a change to the model but rather that it is a natural consequence of the picture of reality that it is deeply engrained in the model, embedded within the concept of selective advantage.”
I can at least say the originator of the model -Darwin – didn’t agree with you. But allot has happened since so I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
“If not on evidence, how did you come to acquire this belief?”
The belief that I have no evidence for is the belief that I am not a brain in a vat. i acquired that belief because the alternative seems intolerable. But I can’t say i have any evidence that i am not a brain in a vat.
With respect to God I do think I have some evidence. Miracles were recorded in the Gospels and some of the other books of the new testament. There are also some other reports of miracles since those times. I almost certainly agree that not all reports of miracles are true miracles. But I think the miracle reports count as “some evidence for God.” How much that amounts to is very debatable. But I believed in a form of pragmatic encroachment long before I knew what pragmatic encroachment was. So I think my belief in God is justified without the “evidence” doing all the heavy lifting.
I will do a blog on pragmatic encroachment shortly.
I was shooting for something more fundamental. Where does your concept of God come from? What is the source of your idea that God created you to have generally reliable beliefs?
Your question assumes there is one source and I can clearly identify it. I don’t think either is true. But that does not necessarily mean my belief is unjustified.
I would give the same response if you asked “where did the source of my idea of Australia come from?” Again I would not be able to tell you. It is in atlases, sure, but I don’t think that I ever looked at Australia in an atlas. So I am pretty sure that is not the source of how my concept of Australia came from. Does this mean my view that Australia exists or other features related to it are unjustified? I don’t think that follows. (by the way I am stealing this analogy from Anthony Kenny)
Now I will say this – if this is what you are getting at. If I should learn that I came to believe in Australia or God through some mechanic which I realize is not reliable I would indeed question my belief.
That’s in the proximity but it isn’t exactly where I’m going with this.
I’m not assuming that there is one clearly identified source for your belief in God. Even a vague understanding would do. So let’s try asking the question a different way. Which came first: your trust in your senses and beliefs, or your belief in God?
I’m assuming you mean first in time.
Short answer:
I think I believed my senses and beliefs were reliable at an earlier age than when believed in God.
Long Answer:
As a baby I maneuvered around objects in my environment before I believed in God. During that time I had pretty much maneuvered around objects like I imagine a mouse or even a cockroach might. The question of whether my beliefs can be trusted never occurred to me until I was a freshman in High School when a friend told me about Descartes dreaming argument. Until that time I don’t even think the notion that my beliefs might be suspect even dawned on me. Although I certainly had an idea of how my senses worked. I think I believed in God before I understood how seeing hearing and the like worked.
Does a mouse or a cockroach believe their beliefs and senses are reliable? It might depend on how we define belief. But I think we can define belief either way and I don’t really have a strong view on it.
Please tweak the following statement so that you feel it is accurate, or let me know if you think it is already accurate:
Joe operated as if his beliefs \ senses were reliable (even if he hadn’t explicitly identified this) and came to a belief in God as a consequence of his trusting the beliefs \ senses which delivered the information that formed his conception of God, and part of his conception of God is that God will bestow us with beliefs \ senses that are generally reliable (though they are not currently 100% perfect).
It all seems fine except maybe this part:
“and came to a belief in God as a consequence of his trusting the beliefs \ senses which delivered the information that formed his conception of God,”
This seems to make my belief in God causally dependent on my other beliefs and senses. I am not certain that is the case. I really don’t have a strong position on that.
But lets say that I agree with that, because it seems plausible, and I want to see where this leads. 🙂
OK, let’s cut to the chase.
John operated as if his beliefs \ senses were reliable (even if he hadn’t explicitly identified this) and came to a belief in unguided evolution as a consequence of his trusting the beliefs \ senses which delivered the information that formed his understanding of unguided evolution, and part of his understanding of unguided evolution is that it results in beliefs \ senses that are generally reliable (though they are not 100% perfect).
Are Joe and John on equal footing, or is one view more justified than the other?
I think John’s case is different. I do not think it is part of the understanding of unguided evolution that it results in beliefs and senses that are reliable. I don’t think that is in the model at all. I think the model just points to survival and reproduction. The model doesn’t concern itself with how the content of a things beliefs might or might not correlate with reality.
I think people hold beliefs that unguided evolution will result in generally reliable beliefs, but I do not think that claim is in the model itself. These beliefs like all the others presumably form as a result of the operation of the model.
I’m well aware that this is what you think but it doesn’t matter for this question. We’re considering John’s understanding. Are you suggesting that John has somehow erred upon reaching his understanding and that Joe has not?
Yes either John or Joe is wrong on this and I think its John. Either the model of unguided evolution as understood in the relevant community (here I think its the scientific community) makes the claim that it leads to creatures with reliable beliefs or it does not. I do not think the model makes that claim.
I do think John can accept a modification of the model but if so he should explain that. Sort of like I say I accept evolution but my version is not quite what many other people might think it is. Since its not entirely unguided. But yes as I said in my blog:
“Can we include those beliefs that I quoted from Travis and make them part of the Evolutionary model? Yes I suppose we can but they are not part of the model now. Just like we can change model A to be Model B. Model B could be I am created by brain in a vat that is controlled by an evil genius *and* that evil genius gives me reliable beliefs. So Model E could become Model F. Model F is that I came about from a process that selected for things that survived, reproduced, and had reliably true beliefs. But until that is done I think those who adopt the view that they were created by a completely natural selection do indeed have a defeater for all their beliefs.”
So yes I think with a tweak to the evolutionary model John can be just as well off as the theist. But I am taking the unguided evolutionary model as explained by science to be more like model E than model F. You might disagree. And I admit I might be wrong. But I don’t think so.
But really I do wonder if you are a moral realist. If so I would love to get your thoughts on my last blog. It would allow me to concedes your argument here in relation to many different types of belief but argues your argument can not be stretched to cover moral beliefs.
For the sake of argument, it can concede that your reasoning that evolutionary forces can indeed lead you to rationally believe that your senses are reliable in many areas of thought. That is because evolutionary forces can track material things. And since truths in many areas of thought such as math science have material indicia evolution can track them.
But with respect to rightness or wrongness they are properties that really don’t exist in a particular space or at least they have no material indicia or manifestations. So when we look at the argument you make here:
We see that your reasons all rely on material interactions. But if I am right and the actual truth of moral claims has no physical manifestation or indicia then this argument can not possibly apply to the reliability of moral beliefs. After all if there is no material or physical indicia how can it possibly effect survival or reproduction?
Joe,
Your insistence on confining the dialog surrounding evolution to the constraints of your model is honestly a bit exhausting. I don’t understand why probable, or even possible, inferences which are lucidly derived from your base concept are disallowed. Is the model that we are created by God really so different? Isn’t the conclusion that God would give us reliable beliefs an inference drawn from the model which states that God is good and that a good being would not want to deceive us? Why are we allowed to include these things in one model but not the other?
I read your most recent post and wasn’t inspired to comment, probably because my thoughts on ethics are largely unsettled. That said, this could be an opportunity to think through some of those things, so I’ll give it whirl.
” Isn’t the conclusion that God would give us reliable beliefs an inference drawn from the model which states that God is good and that a good being would not want to deceive us? Why are we allowed to include these things in one model but not the other?”
I don’t say you can’t include them. You can include them. I am just saying that I do not believe they *are currently* included in the scientific model of evolutionary process. I think the current scientific model of evolutionary process looks more like model E than model F. Accept model F as the model of evolutionary process and the problem, as I presented it, is solved.
“These standards exclude the belief that God is real, but they [atheists] aren’t using those standards when it comes to analyzing whether morality is real.”
That’s because this god of yours is an entity, a being, capable of creating life, of becoming a father, morals are simply ideas. Morals aren’t “real” in the sense everyone thinks god is.(And that’s a very strange argument in favor of a god existing.)
No offense, but your points are hard to understand. Brevity might help.
Thank you for reading my blog. Sorry my writing is terrible. No offense is taken. I will try for more brevity but lots of ideas require explanation. Maybe I will try to post shorter blogs that cover one issue at a time. Unfortunately I have some even longer blogs written and I am not sure how I can shorten them.
As for you statement that “Morals aren’t “real” in the sense everyone thinks god is.” I think people might agree they are real in different senses, but most people tend to think morality is real. They believe it exists regardless of whether we think it exists.
The point of this blog was not necessarily to argue God exists. But rather to just sort of canvass some of the inconvenient consequences that believing in naturalism and evolution might cause some people. Whether they are truly inconvenient will depend on what the atheist believes to begin with. So of course some of these consequences may not be inconvenient at all. For example is someone is not a moral realist then the first 2 arguments will not be inconvenient at all.
One of the things I tended to learn is that philosophical proofs tend to only apply to people who hold certain beliefs to begin with. Which arguments will apply to which people is impossible to tell unless you first learn what they believe before. Lots of people do want to hold onto the notion that morality is real and that our beliefs about it are reliable. The way our understanding of evolution is developing it doesn’t look good for the naturalist who wants to hold onto those views.
I did an earlier blog on my general views of how logical arguments work and what we can expect of them here:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/01/11/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-gods-existence-proven/
Good writing is not simply sharing an idea or story. It’s mastering the technical aspects of writing. One of the most common mistakes newbie writers make is to just spew their thoughts down in a flood. (This is what you do.) They do this because they are literally writing their thoughts in an uncontrolled fashion. This is not an effective way to communicate to a READER.
In order for you to make your points clear, and allow for good discussions, you must learn to WRITE. Learn to be succinct. Anyone who would be interested in reading your blog is going to “get” the gist of your meaning without all your verbage.
I’m giving you this unsolicited advice to help you. I realize it’s harsh, and I apologize for that.
Darling, that ship has sailed. It’s docked in that Egyptian port near Israel, and we all know what happens next…
It’s interesting that you replied. I was going to suggest your blog to him for an example of excellence in writing. You know how to write.
I follow his blog and commented a few times there as well. Of course, you know that I was aware of his blog, since you responded in a blog he made specifically addressing some comments I made there.
I think I can see why lots of people like it and I am too am glad he writes it. I am going for something a bit different here. Different people have different cravings in blogs they like to read, so I am glad there is a variety.
Carolina
Thank you for your concern and your advice. I can assure you what I write is not just spewed out. However I admit most of the thought goes into whether it coherent and logical rather than how easy it is to read. Moreover I also admit I am no Steinbeck.
This blog involves allot of philosophy and it is not easy to read. I would often have to reread philosophers three times before I really understood what they are saying. I do try to explain things a bit more in depth in this non-professional blog. I hope people who are not involved in philosophy can enjoy it, but they will likely have bit harder time of it then those who are well versed in the concepts and arguments.
“Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler.” – attributed to Einstein.
You still justify what you’re doing wrong. Philosophy can be problematic because it’s deliberately obtuse, but even its concepts can be presented in an easy to understand format, just like law can.
If you don’t stop with the flood of ideas and the philosophical bullshit, few people will ever bother to read what you’re saying.
Thanks again for your comments and your concerns.
Philosophers are not deliberately obtuse. (at least not all of them are.) The reason philosophy can be difficult reading is because the concepts they are trying to get across stretch the English vocabulary. That is why philosophy involves learning many new terms. Such as non-cognitivism, metaethics, constructivism, noetic structure. I even learned a new one a few weeks ago called “pragmatic encroachment.” Learning this lingo can be a barrier at first but once the concepts related to these terms are understood they can make the discussion go much smoother.
http://unconfirmedabsolutes.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/whose-burden-is-it/comment-page-1/#comment-107
Estoy extremadamente impresionados con su habilidades y con el diseño en su weblog.
Es esto tema o Ha modificar que usted mismo ? De cualquier manera mantener el excelente calidad escritura, es
infrecuente de archivos a grandes blog como éste actualidad ..