I had read an article a while back about the fact that political partisans mainly use emotional centers of the brain when analyzing statements and claims of various politicians. “We did not see any increased activation of the parts of the brain normally engaged during reasoning,” said Drew Westen, director of clinical psychology at Emory University. “What we saw instead was a network of emotion circuits lighting up, including circuits hypothesized to be involved in regulating emotion, and circuits known to be involved in resolving conflicts.” The title of the article states “Democrats and Republicans Both Adept at Ignoring Facts, Study Finds”
Ok this article clearly condemns these partisans when it comes to their political thinking. The underlying assumption we all hold is that if you are using the emotional part of your brain to draw conclusions instead of the reasoning parts then your conclusions will be unreliable. Is this just for politics? What about science, math, religion, or morals?
Well I don’t have all the answers or really the full answer on any of them. But I think it is quite clear when it comes to morals we say the opposite of politics. That is when people don’t primarily use emotional centers of the brain when drawing moral conclusions their conclusions are unreliable.
Where is the evidence? It is coming in droves thanks to the use of MRI scans of the brain. In particular when we compare the psychopaths brain with that of normal people. There have been numerous studies of psychopaths. Psychopaths are people who distinguish themselves in society by at times behaving horrendously immorally. It’s not only the murders, but also the extensive lying, and lack of guilt for their actions, that help separate them out. MRI studies have found that they lack certain emotions that normal people experience. It is not necessarily a complete lack of emotion but it is shown to be substantially diminished in test after test. (although it does appear they can turn on these emotions when they want)
However generally as a group psychopaths do not lack any ability to reason. In fact, they seem to use the reasoning portion of their brain more than normal people. So for example when psychaths were compared with normal people and asked to determine the emotional state of a protagonist they both were equally able to determine that person’s emotional state. But psychopath used reason where as normal people used more of their emotional brains.
The study stated in its abstract: “The results emphasize that although psychopathic patients show no deficits in reasoning about other people’s emotion if an explicit evaluation is demanded, they use divergent neural processing strategies that are related to more rational, outcome-oriented processes.” This article discusses this study and others.
There are other philosophers who have drawn similar conclusions: http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~snichols/Papers/PsychopathsFinal.pdf http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/mrvargas/Papers/VNFinal.pdf
One of the best known psychologists to draw this conclusion is Dr. Haidt. He published an article called “The Emotional Dog and its Rational Tail”, 14 years ago. His thesis seems to be continually bolstered by later mri testing.
In the end I still maintain that reason and logic can play a part in moral decision making. But the empirical evidence is quite overwhelming that, for most of us, we are primarily basing our moral views on emotional mechanisms.
Why is this relevant to Christianity? Well mainly I think it is just interesting in it’s own right. But also if you have read my other blogs you will see there is a view held by some that our moral judgments are the result of reasoning processes just like the reasoning that brings us scientific advances. They argue that since our reasoning is a reliable mechanic to truth finding, we can rely on our “moral reasoning” for moral truth. Well as it turns out this idea of “moral reasoning” is for the most part a myth that science is debunking every day.
I would maintain that if naturalism is correct we shouldn’t think emotional responses will bring about truth beliefs in morality any more than it will bring about truth in politics. If however, you think God wrote the moral law on our hearts, then you have a good reason to trust your moral emotions. The fact that our moral views are driven by emotions fits quite well with Christian thought.
Emotions come from the very physical body per that same science that you tout. How does that square with Christian claims?
Hi Vel, thanks for your comment. I wonder if you want to reject the notion of any mind body dualism.
Regardless, I think that most Christians believe God had a hand in our creation. How extensive his interaction was is debated. But most Christians believe he took measures to ensure we know right from wrong:
Consider Jerimiah 31:
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
See also Hebrews Chapter 10.
In light of these beliefs our reliance on our hearts seems reasonable. It seems psychopaths have hardened hearts. However the literature seems to suggest they can switch on the relevant emotions, and that everyone can build on these emotions. That is what Christian teaching encourages.
Yep, I totally reject mind/body dualism. If you do not, can you explain to me how people change so drastically when their brain is damaged? Why does brain chemistry so alter people and why can drugs make things better?
I agree, Christians by definition claim that their god created the universe and that is in it. You are right in that christians can’t agree on the extent of the interaction nor can they show any evidence that their claims are true.
I would add to your verse from Jeremiah the verse from Genesis where the bible claims humans know good and evil as well as their god (or gods since God is speaking to others like him).
However, there is no need for some supernatural creature to establish morality. We can get it simply from empathy and the need to have a working model to keep civilization going. The problem is that this god itself doesn’t have a coherent morality or a consistent one.
I would like to see the literature that says psychopaths can “switch on” emotions. Speaking of hardened hearts, could it be that your god hardened them? It’s done so before (Exodus) and Romans 9 says that this god can screw around with people as much as it wants (it mentions Exodus), to the point of damning people not for what they do, but for what this god has decided on a whim, that they cannot accept its “grace”.
“Yep, I totally reject mind/body dualism. If you do not, can you explain to me how people change so drastically when their brain is damaged? Why does brain chemistry so alter people and why can drugs make things better?”
I really don’t have a strong position on this. But I think dualists would agree that our body effects our mind. But they would maintain that at base there is something different than our body still involved with who we are. I would say “I have a body” not “I am my body.”
“However, there is no need for some supernatural creature to establish morality.”
I agree that logically there is no reason to say we must have God in order to have morality – even objective and real morality. I argue this point against William lane Craig’s objection here:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/07/02/euthyphro-dilemma-and-william-lane-craigs-response/
“We can get it simply from empathy and the need to have a working model to keep civilization going.”
Now here I think things get a bit tricky. I think it depends what you mean by morality. There are several different views of what morality is from a metaethical view. There is real morality, relativism, etc. I discuss this here:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/01/20/what-do-you-mean-im-wrong/
I am a moral realist. If you read what that means I think you can see why the fact that our moral beliefs basically stem from our emotions is problematic – at least if they were derived from unguided evolution. Why would we think the emotions are actually motivating us toward the truth? In just about every other area it is almost taken for granted that emotional responses are a poor guide to the truth of reality.
If you think morals are just relative – basically we just make it up – then yeah this is not going to be a problem. There are other problems with relativism.
“The problem is that this god itself doesn’t have a coherent morality or a consistent one.”
I am not so sure about that. I think Jesus was certainly coherent and gave a consistent message. It is one that people understood for ages. I agree it wasn’t tremendously detailed and it left room for interpretation. But I don’t think that means it was incoherent or inconsistent.
“I would like to see the literature that says psychopaths can “switch on” emotions.”
It’s pretty interesting isn’t it? Here is a link:
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/136/8/2550
tell me what you think.
“Speaking of hardened hearts, could it be that your god hardened them? It’s done so before (Exodus) and Romans 9 says that this god can screw around with people as much as it wants (it mentions Exodus), to the point of damning people not for what they do, but for what this god has decided on a whim, that they cannot accept its “grace”.
Great questions. Ok I think god created the psychopaths. I tend to believe God will judge us based on what he gave us. Those who understand the truth better will be judged different than those who are given less of the truth.
Luke 12: 47-48
“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”
Your blog seems to indicate that you do have a strong position on the idea of duality. How does a physical object affect a immaterial one? And vice versa? If an immaterial thing e.g. a “soul” can effect a physical object that runs on electricity, it should be able to be sensed or to affect something else that also works on electricity. There is nothing to support this at all.
There is nothing, logically or not, that indicates that there is a god or that morality comes from it. Morality is the idea of what is right and wrong. At its base, that’s all it is, and the idea of “real morality” relativism, etc, is only how we get to such things. With empathy, we have “I don’t want that to happen to me or to anyone else”, with civilization we have “I don’t want anyone to steal from me or kill me, and I don’t want that to happen to anyone else.”
There is no problem at all that our moral beliefs come from our emotions and our intellect. You seem to be claiming that there is some kind of “truth”, that there is one best way to act, like Christians claim their religion teaches (though they all disagree on what exactly that is). Our emotions can motivate us to the idea that “I don’t want that to happen to me.” Religion says “It’s okay if that happens to someone else as long as I can consider them less than human and/or “evil”.” This is why I find that any claim of something that guides evolution, to be nonsense since there is no evidence for such a thing, or that this thing has any objective truths. We don’t “just make it up”, that would claim that we do things randomly and we don’t. I can agree that emotional responses are an imperfect guide to reality. However, religion is worse since there is nothing to show that their gods are real at all. What we use to figure out reality is neither, we use the scientific method.
I am quite sure that your god does not have a coherent morality or a consistent one because I’ve read the bible, as a believer and as not. Jesus did not give a coherent or consistent message and you can know this by reading the bible. People understand what others have told them, which is cherry picked stories. For instance, we have JC saying that one should turn the other cheek and not resist evil. Then we have JC saying that anyone who doesn’t accept him as king should be brought before him and killed. We have JC saying that he and this god is love, but he says everyone should leave their families for him, to the point of not even burying a dead parent. Compare this to the OT, which JC says is quite true and applicable, and we have this god, which is also JC if we are to believe Christianity, saying that killing children is fine, and that people should be killed for all sorts of silly things. Then, we can bring in what Paul claims which disagrees with the first two. All of these contradictions are the definition of incoherent and inconsistent, and again Christians cannot agree on what their god “really” means or wants.
*Very* intriguing study. I wonder if one can say that one can be trained to feel emotions. I’ve heard such claims about autistic people. Now, I do have a question. This study shows that brain activity can be tracked and causally associated with emotions which would put any claims of duality at risk. There are quite a few studies that show dualism to be nonsense. Since they all use the scientific method, why ignore all of the work that says that there is nothing like a “soul”?
So, God created psychopaths, that suffer themselves and make others suffer. What was the point in creating more harm in the world, Joe? How can someone be judged on something that they had no choice over? If someone is given better resources to understand this god of yours, it is this god’s fault that someone didn’t have the resources and got it wrong. It is not the person’s fault. It’s like me saying that I judge that Sam is smarter than Jim because I gave Sam a better education and intentionally forbid that to Jim. For all of the claim of a just and fair god by Christians, this shows that this god is not just or fair at all.
This depends on being able to show evidence for your god, which no religion has yet done. Many, if not all religions, claim what Paul tried to claim in Romans 1, that one can look around and see his, and only his god. With no evidence of your gods, and duplicate claims for the same facts, there is no reason to think that any of you are right. This “servant” sees no master, and all of the other “servants” make differing claims for its “will”. This master does nothing to show it exists and cannot make good on its promises in its supposed book. And the master that beats anyone at all, even a “few blows” for not knowing something is pointlessly vicious.
These points are some of the reasons I reached the conclusion of atheism.
I gave a reply to this below.
ah, smart man 🙂
Hi Vel thanks for your comments. I am glad we share an interest and find this research interesting.
Yes I am a Christian. But these sorts of issues are not what I would call Christian issues. To the extent I know the religion of any of the writers of the articles I reference they are not Christians. I wouldn’t be surprised if none of them are Christians. The issues that these mris of psychopaths raise are relevant for understanding morality of Christian and non-Christian alike.
I give my own view as a Christian at the end of the blog because this blog is about my own views and so I share a bit about what I make of it. But the interest in these findings stretches well beyond the Christian – atheist debates.
As far as dualism goes I do not have any strong views. By that I mean that I really haven’t thought about it. Yes as a Christian I believe in a soul. But how that soul interacts with the body etc etc, is something I really haven’t considered. Rather than go to wikipedia and start to peel off answers others gave I would just as soon leave it at that. I am mildly interested in the topic but really I haven’t given it much thought in over 20 years. It just so happens that one of the blogs I read is going to have an author address some of these issues. So you may want to read what he has to say.
http://aphilosopherstake.com/2015/01/31/picked-last-in-meta-phys-ed/
There are lots of things about the world that I do not understand and sadly have no time to adequately learn about. This includes quantum physics, what was there before the big bang and if there was nothing then how did something come from nothing, dark matter, paradoxes of the infinite etc. All of these sorts of questions I have no strong views on. And by that I mean I have not really gained an understanding of the topics sufficiently to claim strong views on them.
I am no wizzkid genius who can learn all the unknowns of our existence in his spare time. In fact I am often quite slow at learning. I might read a philosophy article and not understand a word of it. Then 3 years later pick it up after reading some other things and finally understand it. In order to really participate in an issue I have to learn the basics and that is not always easy for me.
On the other hand I do think I have a pretty good sense of logic and most importantly a strong curiosity. So I have thought long and hard about a few topics that interest me and I share my views here. But I am not going to be the “answer man” to all questions. And mind body dualism is one area I really never had much interest in.
Ok that said let me give you my thoughts to the extent I have some.
You said:
“There is nothing, logically or not, that indicates that there is a god or that morality comes from it.”
I think this is addressed in my other blog on evidence. I gave reasons why I thought there was some evidence and in your latest comments you seemed to change your position from “no evidence” to “no strong evidence”. I am happy to address this with you as it is something I have thought about and developed some fairly strong views on but let’s do talk about it in the blog that addresses that issue ok?
You said:
“Morality is the idea of what is right and wrong. At its base, that’s all it is, and the idea of “real morality” relativism, etc, is only how we get to such things. With empathy, we have “I don’t want that to happen to me or to anyone else”, with civilization we have “I don’t want anyone to steal from me or kill me, and I don’t want that to happen to anyone else.””
Ok I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. Moral realists and moral relativists are people who hold mutually exclusive views about what right and wrong are. Non-cognitivists hold views that are mutually exclusive from realists and relativists. Your last comment might suggest a bit of a non-cognitivist view of morality. But really I am not sure what camp you are in. I did a blog post that I think gives the general outline of 4 different camps regarding morality. The lines aren’t as clear as we might like but I think it’s helpful to at least get a decent understanding of these concepts. Here is the blog post:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/01/20/what-do-you-mean-im-wrong/
So speaking in general terms I would think an error theorist and a non-cognitivist would have no problems with these findings and would probably find these studies support their view. Relativists might have mixed views on this study and may need to adjust their views. Realists would likely have the most problems. But in order to really do an analysis of what to make of these sorts of studies we would need to dig deeper. There are scholars who are realists who think that we learn morals through reason. Their numbers and influence is not insubstantial. I think they will have a particularly hard time swallowing these studies. And note I am assuming these scholars are atheists. Christians have their own problems to deal with but this largely is not one of them. This does not present a real problem for their worldview.
You said:
“I am quite sure that your god does not have a coherent morality or a consistent one because I’ve read the bible, as a believer and as not. Jesus did not give a coherent or consistent message and you can know this by reading the bible. People understand what others have told them, which is cherry picked stories. For instance, we have JC saying that one should turn the other cheek and not resist evil. Then we have JC saying that anyone who doesn’t accept him as king should be brought before him and killed. We have JC saying that he and this god is love, but he says everyone should leave their families for him, to the point of not even burying a dead parent. Compare this to the OT, which JC says is quite true and applicable, and we have this god, which is also JC if we are to believe Christianity, saying that killing children is fine, and that people should be killed for all sorts of silly things. Then, we can bring in what Paul claims which disagrees with the first two. All of these contradictions are the definition of incoherent and inconsistent, and again Christians cannot agree on what their god “really” means or wants.”
Jesus said turn the other cheek but I am not sure he said don’t resist evil. That is perhaps your interpretation but it’s not one I share. You see I am not saying people can’t construe the bible in all sorts of incoherent ways. They can and they have. It’s a fact. But that does not mean Jesus was inconsistent.
As far as your saying he said “everyone should leave their families for him” I do not think he said that either. Some people may have to leave their families for him no doubt. And I think he said that right and wrong takes precedence over family – but that is not anti-loving. Some family members are bad people are they not? Should loyalty to family trump all things? And as far as hating family I think that was hyperbole. It was hyperbole to emphasize that what God wants comes first. God wants us to live good lives and that comes before family.
Jesus said he fulfilled the ot. Jesus also no longer followed the ancient rules regarding adultery when he was confronted with the adulteress.
I am not sure where God said killing children is fine. But I address some of these issues here:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/04/07/is-god-horrible/
I would be happy to take up these issues there. But this blog post really has little to do with that. And some people might be reading this blog post and have no interest in that debate.
“*Very* intriguing study. I wonder if one can say that one can be trained to feel emotions. I’ve heard such claims about autistic people.”
Yes I think that is where the research is hoping to shed light. Psychopaths are apparently a combination of genetics and environment. Some children seem to have diminished emotional responses. The science is hopeful that people can reinforce those emotional responses in children and perhaps even adults so that they can better appreciate morality. Autistic people have certain empathy issues as well but the overall cluster of issues does not cause the moral issues that psychopathy causes. At least that is my general – and somewhat uninformed understanding.
“Now, I do have a question. This study shows that brain activity can be tracked and causally associated with emotions which would put any claims of duality at risk. There are quite a few studies that show dualism to be nonsense. Since they all use the scientific method, why ignore all of the work that says that there is nothing like a “soul”?”
Well we have known that certain parts of the brain are associated with certain cognitive functions for a long time. So I think that ship has sailed. If this knowledge causes surprise problems for someone’s views of duality then their views were probably not very well considered to begin with.
“So, God created psychopaths, that suffer themselves and make others suffer. What was the point in creating more harm in the world, Joe? How can someone be judged on something that they had no choice over? If someone is given better resources to understand this god of yours, it is this god’s fault that someone didn’t have the resources and got it wrong. It is not the person’s fault. It’s like me saying that I judge that Sam is smarter than Jim because I gave Sam a better education and intentionally forbid that to Jim. For all of the claim of a just and fair god by Christians, this shows that this god is not just or fair at all.”
I think psychopaths can still have free will. They have issues that others do not but again I would quote Luke: “From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”
God will judge us according to what we were given. You don’t even know how God will judge everyone and you are already saying he is unfair. Can you not agree that you should at least first wait to see what he does before you decry him as unfair?
You say:
“This depends on being able to show evidence for your god, which no religion has yet done.”
Ok again I think I address this in a different blog post. You made many good comments in that but in the end I thought I at least I convinced you that there is some evidence and we moved on to whether it was “strong evidence.”
I’ll be back to address some other parts of your post bu I did want to address this part where you said you weren’t sure if JC says don’t resist evil. It’s pretty easy to see once you look it up.
“38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.”
It seems that this is what he said. I can understand that you don’t want to interpret it the way its written. Many Christians disagree on what their god really means and really wants, to the point that they have killed each other over it. Considering this, there is no way to know if your JC had a consistent view at all, since Christians don’t agree, much less bringing in bibical scholars and non-believers who can and will point out other direct quotes.
Jesus said he fulfilled the OT and fulfill doesn’t only mean to end, a problem many Christians run into. It can mean “to put into effect” and if one accepts that JC was there to correct the Pharisees abuses (fulfilling the letter of the law but not the spirit), then he was indeed there to put into effect all of the laws of the OT. in context, it seems like that is exactly what the author meant.
I would advise you to read your bible. I do have an advantage since I have a very good memory and read a lot. biblegateway.com is a great place to search the bible by keyword and verses.
I don’t mind interpreting what is written but what is written is not what you said.
You interpret him saying “do not resist an evil person” who slaps you as generally “do not resist evil.” I don’t. He wants people to stop slapping and start thinking. And in particular think of others and not just themselves.
Again, I agree that people can have different interpretations. Christians and non-christians do. But again our disagreements of interpretation do not necessarily mean Christ was inconsistent or incoherent. I tend to follow the traditions of the Catholic Church but you are right that even within the church there is disagreement.
There difficulties and at times I am not sure what to make of passages.
“Jesus said he fulfilled the OT and fulfill doesn’t only mean to end, a problem many Christians run into. It can mean “to put into effect” and if one accepts that JC was there to correct the Pharisees abuses (fulfilling the letter of the law but not the spirit), then he was indeed there to put into effect all of the laws of the OT. in context, it seems like that is exactly what the author meant.”
Ok again I don’t interpret it that way. Especially when we consider context including how Jesus treated the Adulteress. He fulfilled the ot and gave us a new way of thinking.
I am glad you have a good memory and I am glad you read the bible. But if you read it with the sole intent that you want to prove God is horrible then you will find passages for that. Confirmation bias works wonders. If you want to read it how the church and Christians have read it for several centuries then you will learn about how they interpret it and consider their thoughts. Maybe even go to a mass and listen to how a priest interprets the passages.
What is written is exactly what I said since I quoted the verse. The verse says “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.” It is not my interpretation, it is what is written in your bible, word for word. I can understand that you have decided that it doesn’t “really” mean that because being a pacifist can be difficult. We can look at it again: 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.” There is nothing here that says “stop slapping and start thinking” or to be concerned for other people (I’d cite Matthew 5:43-48 for that for something close by). What appears to be going on is that the character Jesus is giving examples, and increasing the difficulty of obeying as he is doing so. I have had Christians insist that these verses were only about giving someone your coat and that he didn’t have to ever think about not resisting evil people. The reaction of a Christian to these verses is always a good way to judge how much the Christian has created his own religion based on what he picks and chooses from the bible.
Christians have different interpretations, many completely contradictory. This disagreement of interpretations does mean that your bible is inconsistent and that there is no reason to believe that any of you have any supposed divine “truth” because none of you can support what you claim. You say that you tend to follow the traditions of the Catholic Church. I would guess that you don’t follow all of them, despite the fact that many of them are supposedly either right from this god or the Pope said that they were from this god, speaking ex cathedra. How do you determine which to follow and which to ignore?
I can understand that many times Christians are not sure what to make of their supposed holy book. I would ask, doesn’t this make you wonder about the claims that this is supposedly inspired/written by a omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being when believers cannot agree on what it means, often to the point of harming each other over it?
In regards to JC “fulfilling the law”, I know you don’t interpret the verses that way. However, that’s what the language interpreters got from the Greek, and most bible interpreters claim that their god is “helping” them. The story about the adultress is questioned as a late addition to the bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery) , so there is no reason to be sure that the story would be considered the appropriate context. As I discussed, it could also fit into the idea that JC was to correct the application of the law and to apply mercy to it, as the verses before and after the “eye for an eye” verses in Matthew 5 indicate. Adding mercy would not end the laws, but would give a chance to people, but we know that JC is still for people being punished, even by death, for sin, in his words about how even thinking about a sin is just as bad as the sin and one should be punished for it, and of course, the violence wrought in Revelation. I would ask you a question: if JC was there to end the law, why does he say that those who teach it and follow it will be “called great in the kingdom of heaven”? If the laws/commandments were to be ignored, why would this happen?
I have read the entire bible as a believer, as I was losing my faith and as an atheist. So, no, I haven’t read it with the intent of showing that your god is genocidal, and there are repeated contradictions and false claims in it. I found that out when reading it. So your accusation of confirmation bias is false. It also makes one wonder about how confirmation bias works on your end. I know how the church and how Christians have read it for several thousand years and that’s how I know that the church has changed its mind on what its god “really” means and wants, and Christians have done the same, coming up with sect after sect because they were sure the “others” were wrong. I know how priests and pastors interpret the passages, exactly the way that other Christians do, and again with no more evidence that they are right than anyone else is. I know that they avoid the passages that are problematic, like the parable of the ten minas with its less than palatable ending. They never read about how this god said that young virgin girls are to be taken as slaves and given to soldiers as prizes and to its temple for its share of the loot. They never read how an indentured servant, if married, has to make a choice between staying with his family or being a slave forever, or that their god never says “slaves, seek your freedom.” and instead says stay with your master no matter how he abuses you.
I think I shall stick with this discussion rather than address the rest of your longer post. However, if you’d like to discuss any parts of it, I’d be pleased to do so. Just let me know.
Vel this is what you said and I questioned whether Jesus said it.
“For instance, we have JC saying that one should turn the other cheek and not resist evil.”
Jesus said do not resist an “evil person” but he never said do not resist evil. In the very same chapter he is clearly asking us to resist evil:
“And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”
That does not conflict with the passage saying you should not resist the evil person who strikes you in the cheek. You and others are free to interpret this passage beyond the context of someone striking you and thereby interpret it as Christ saying we must all be pacifists even if the threat is to many people’s lives. I might even agree that is one reasonable way to interpret the passage. But it is not the only reasonable way to understand what Christ was getting at, and I don’t think the church ever adopted your view.
You say:
“There is nothing here that says “stop slapping and start thinking” or to be concerned for other people (I’d cite Matthew 5:43-48 for that for something close by)”
I think the entire chapter is about that. It would seriously be too long to quote all the passages that suggest we should be concerned for other people in this chapter. As you point out, even what he says directly after your quote makes this very clear:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
You don’t think he is saying we should be concerned about others? It’s true he doesn’t say we should think. But that is one reason why the Scriptures are so beautiful. They don’t have to *tell* us to think. They simply make us think.
“Christians have different interpretations, many completely contradictory. This disagreement of interpretations does mean that your bible is inconsistent…”
If you think about this logically you will know this is incorrect. The interpretations contradict, I agree. Therefore they can’t both be true. There is no reason to think the true interpretations contradict.
With respect to the Old versus New Testament is there some tension? Yes, of course, there is clearly a “new covenant.” Does it require us to believe in contradictions? I don’t think so but, I will admit that there are some difficulties and the various explanations are often at odds with each other. But I don’t take issue with the term fulfillment. I was the one who pointed out that Jesus fulfilled the law.
Why isn’t this a big deal for me? Because I am a Catholic and believe that the church wrote the bible (yes inspired by the Holy Spirit) and that the Christ made a promise to the Church that it would be able to guide us and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. It is for this reason that I am not particularly concerned about the historical concerns of the adulteress passage. I still consider it valid guidance from my church even if it was added later. I believe in Purgatory even though it is not specifically detailed in the bible. I wouldn’t have a stronger belief in it if it was detailed. Finally you should understand that I am not one to get concerned about the absolute inerrancy of the bible or the church. The church is my top pick to guide my life even if it is not inerrant. That deserves a blog of its own though.
As far as the parable of ten minas it is part of the Catholic Sunday liturgical cycle to read the analogous passage of the talents. We just read it in November. http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/111614.cfm We hardly avoid it. Perhaps you placed your faith in certain books and refused to believe that the books were intended to be read with the guidance of the church. I never thought that. I always understood that the church is what Christ started and that the books are inerrant with respect to “that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”
You will be inclined to force interpretations that support your view that the Christian God is contradictory and unjust. I will not be so inclined. We will both think it is the others bias that leads to these different interpretations. And we are both likely correct to some extent.
Joe,
You may recall from our past discussions that I have advocated for a tight coupling between emotion and our moral sense. I think that those who have advocated for a strong cognitive component are not digging deep enough to look at the true drivers of moral intuition. While I agree that cognition and reflection can and do reconfigure our moral intuitions, I am inclined to suggest that those changes are more or less rearranging the linkage between our emotional response and the concepts which identify the scenario to be judged. So I think we are largely in agreement here.
That said, I’m not in agreement that this tight correlation between emotion and moral judgement presents a problem for naturalists. I think it’s actually deeply compatible and follows quite logically from the naturalist position. However, I also understand why you see that it aligns with a theistic perspective in which the creator endows his creation with a moral sense. Regardless, a key to my rejection of the incompatibility between naturalism and the emotional component of morality lies in a renewed understanding of the relationship between realism and relativism. In one of your comments to Vel you said that “Moral realists and moral relativists are people who hold mutually exclusive views about what right and wrong are”. Where I once would have agreed with that statement, I’ve recently come to believe that this may not be necessarily true. I’ve been stewing on a new post that I should finish in the next week or so that I hope will explain this further.
Hi Travis
I do indeed remember our discussions and I actually mull them over quite a bit. I think you learned the lingo and gained an understanding of these issues quite quickly and came to reasonable views. Or at least I can’t articulate why they would be unreasonable.
And I will concede you are right that it is bit hasty to say all relativists are not realists. The real distinction might be between “objective realists” and “relativists.” But again they may say the consensus (or whatever they are basing morality on) is objectively real. That said I would be interested in what you have to say.
But it seems to me that the lines drawn in meta-ethics are helpful even if they are not always so bright.
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