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apologetics, Atheism, Catholic, Christianity, ethics, history, law, metaethics
Understanding the ancient world is often difficult for those who were raised in a Christian Culture. It is very hard to believe that slavery was ubiquitous in the ancient world. Why did they tolerate it? It seems like they just treated it as we treat different roles. Some people will own the restaurant some will bus the tables and some will cook etc. People can own animals, and people are animals, so why not? Aristotle expressed this view:
“And indeed the use made of slaves and of tame animals is not very different; for both with their bodies minister to the needs of life.”
Aristotle, Politics
At first blush Paul’s exhortation to seems take the view that being a slave is just another role people have:
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise— “so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.” Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.”
Ephesians 6.
At one level this passage seems to accept these roles. At that level this passage reminds me of my father telling me he didn’t care what I did just whatever I did I should, do it well. Of course, today we don’t see slavery as just another role.
But, he says “And masters treat your slaves in the same way” right after he describes how a slave should treat their master. What?!? This is often overlooked by people when they are trying to be critical of Paul and Christianity. So how should a master treat his slave “the same way” Paul wants a slave to treat his master? Well let’s fill that in:
“Obey your earthly [slaves] with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.”
Whoa, that’s pretty crazy stuff for his time. But, of course, it naturally follows from the view that “the first will be last and the last will be first” Mathew 20:16 and “I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Mathew 25:40. I mean if this is really what that God wanted us to believe you would expect him who has power over us to come and do something like wash the feet of his own creation. John 13.
Paul and Christ are doing much more than arguing for a change of legal codes. They want our heart, mind, and soul to point in the direction of love for another as opposed to us seeing others as tools. They want us to view our relationships with other people in an entirely different way that cannot be captured in law and works regardless of the laws we live under.
Clearly this passage like so many others in Christianity turns what was the common view on its head. We are all to be servants of Christ and by that we do what he wants which is to be servants of each other. Not because we are forced but because of the love he wants us to build for each other.
But slavery was accepted everywhere for so long, why did people change their view and start thinking peopled should not own other people? We see Paul is starting to really upset the apple cart but he still seems to accept the institutional roles themselves at least superficially. How did we start to see this differently, and start to see the institution of slavery as immoral? Of course If morality is defined as whatever we want then it seems the change would just be arbitrary like the wind.
One way to at least approach an answer to this question, is to examine the reasons given by the first person we know of to argue against Slavery as flat out being immoral. This will give us an idea of the original grounds to break from that long established but immoral tradition.
There were certain Stoics who took a view somewhat similar to Paul’s, in that we are meant to be free in a spiritual sense and this can be extended to the physical sense. And indeed the Stoic Dr. Piggliucci quotes, Seneca the younger, was so loved by early Christians that he was often referred to as a proto-christian Saint by them!
I would liken some of these statements from Stoics to some of Paul’s. E.g., Paul asks Philemon that he free his slave out of love rather than have him order to do what he ought to do, and there is no such thing as slave or free in Christ, and that it is good that slaves become free and that they stay free First Corinthians 7:21-24. Paul like these stoics stopped short of giving a giving lengthy attack on slavery itself.
Dr. Piggliucci says “That said, it is certainly the case that no Stoic questioned the very institution of slavery. But it is rather unfair to criticize Stoicism in particular for this failure. Every single ancient philosophy and religion, including Christianity, has incurred in the same failure.” He may be right about other ancient philosophies and religions but based on what Saint Gregory, the Bishop of Nyssa says below I think Christianity is indeed different. Even if we don’t count the teachings of Jesus and Paul as making slavery obsolete we have at least one Ancient Christian attacking slavery.
I would also question Dr. Piggliucci suggesting racism had nothing to do with ancient justification for slavery. He says:
“The Colonial idea of slavery was intrinsically racist, founded on the conceit that some people are literally sub-human, not worthy of the same consideration as the rest of us. That was not the case in Ancient Greece and Rome, where one could become a slave by losing a battle.”
Consider this quote from Plato:
“…nature herself intimates that it is just for the better to have more than the worse, the more powerful than the weaker; and in many ways she shows, among men as well as among animals, and indeed among whole cities and races, that justice consists in the superior ruling over and having more than the inferior.”
Plato, Gorgias
Moreover, Aristotle specifically addressed this case and said that if a person who was not naturally a slave was made a slave after being captured in battle (a legal slave) it would be wrong for them not to be freed. And if a person who was a natural slave was freed by law that would also be wrong not to re-enslave him. See politics book 1 part 6.
What made someone naturally a slave and another naturally a ruler? That is somewhat unclear but he seems fairly sympathetic to the view that “Helenes” (Greeks) are fit to rule. Whereas non-Greeks “barbarians” have no one fit to rule as they are all natural slaves. “But among barbarians no distinction is made between women and slaves, because there is no natural ruler among them: they are a community of slaves, male and female.” Politics book one part 2.
Aristotle also talks about the inability to understand certain things would make someone more fit to be a slave. But whatever the details it is fairly clear he sees the natural slaves as inferior to the natural masters. Here is a quote that also gives us some insight as to some other moral views Christianity inherited from the ancient world:
“And it is clear that the rule of the soul over the body, and of the mind and the rational element over the passionate, is natural and expedient; whereas the equality of the two or the rule of the inferior is always hurtful. The same holds good of animals in relation to men; for tame animals have a better nature than wild, and all tame animals are better off when they are ruled by man; for then they are preserved. Again, the male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled; this principle, of necessity, extends to all mankind.”
Aristotle politics book 1 part 5.
It is for these reasons I would question Dr. Piggliucci’s statement suggesting the bigotry of the later centuries was not around in ancient times.
In any case the first known assault on the very notion of slavery comes from Saint Gregory, the Bishop of Nyssa. He lived from @335- @395 AD. I quote a translation of his attack on slavery from a homily on ecclesiastics where the person boasts of owning slaves. I will offer a rather lengthy quote because it is important to get the reasoning. The reasoning of the first people to take a different view is evidence of what caused the gradual change to our current views. Moreover, the first known argument against slavery is in my opinion a text worth reading in its own right.
…..as for a human being to think himself the master of his own kind? “I got me slaves and slave-girls”, he says, and homebred slaves were born for me.
Do you notice the enormity of the boast? This kind of language is raised up as a challenge to God. For we hear from prophecy that all things are the slaves of the power that transcends all (Ps 119/118,91). So, when someone turns the property of God into his own property and arrogates dominion to his own kind, so as to think himself the owner of men and women, what is he doing but overstepping his own nature through pride, regarding himself as something different from his subordinates?
I got me slaves and slave-girls. What do you mean? You condemn man to slavery, when his nature is free and possesses free will, and you legislate in competition with God, overturning his law for the human species. The one made on the specific terms that he should be the owner of the earth, and appointed to government by the Creator – him you bring under the yoke of slavery, as though defying and fighting against the divine decree.
You have forgotten the limits of your authority, and that your rule is confined to control over things without reason. For it says Let them rule over winged creatures and fishes and four-footed things and creeping things (Gen, 1,26). Why do you go beyond what is subject to you and raise yourself up against the very species which is free, counting your own kind on a level with four-footed things and even footless things? You have subjected all things to man, declares the word through the prophecy, and in the text it lists the things subject, cattle and oxen and sheep (Ps 8,7- 8). Surely human beings have not been produced from your cattle? Surely cows have not conceived human stock? Irrational beasts are the only slaves of mankind. But to you these things are of small account. Raising fodder for the cattle, and green plants for the slaves of men, it says (Ps 1041 103,14). But by dividing the human species in two with ‘slavery’ and ‘ownership’ you have caused it to be enslaved to itself, and to be the owner of itself.
I got me slaves and slave-girls. For what price, tell me? What did you find in existence worth as much as this human nature? What price did you put on rationality? How many obols did you reckon the equivalent of the likeness of God? How many staters did you get for selling the being shaped by God? God said, Let us make man in our own image and likeness (Gen 1,26). If he is in the likeness of God, and rules the whole earth, and has been granted authority over everything on earth from God, who is his buyer, tell me? who is his seller? To God alone belongs this power; or rather, not even to God himself. For his gracious gifts, it says, are irrevocable (Rom 11,29). God would not therefore reduce the human race to slavery, since he himself, when we had been enslaved to sin, spontaneously recalled us to freedom. But if God does not enslave what is free, who is he that sets his own power above God’s?
How too shall the ruler of the whole earth and all earthly things be put up for sale? For the property of the person sold is bound to be sold with him, too. So how much do we think the whole earth is worth? And how much all the things on the earth (Gen 1,26)? If they are priceless, what price is the one above them worth, tell me? Though you were to say the whole world, even so you have not found the price he is worth (Mat 16,26; Mk 8,36). He who knew the nature of mankind rightly said that the whole world was not worth giving in exchange for a human soul. Whenever a human being is for sale, therefore, nothing less than the owner of the earth is led into the sale-room. Presumably, then, the property belonging to him is up for auction too. That means the earth, the islands, the sea, and all that is in them. What will the buyer pay, and what will the vendor accept, considering how much property is entailed in the deal?
But has the scrap of paper, and the written contract, and the counting out of obols deceived you into thinking yourself the master of the image of God? What folly! …
The Bishop’s indignation is palpable. So while many of the ancients seemed to see people as an animal that would have value often based on traits they had no control over, such as intelligence or race etc. Christianity and Judaism introduced a different way to understand who we are separated by God from the other animals and things of creation.
- Humans are priceless. God gave us everything in the world and that is priceless and so as owners clearly we are priceless.
- God gave us authority over animals and plants but not other people. Our God given authority does not go that far.
- The least shall be first and first shall be last, and how we treat the least is how we treat God himself. (This one was not in the Bishop’s text but permeates the Christian message.)
- And yes we are made in the image of God! Jesus built on this idea in saying we should refer to God as our Father. Hence, we are all children of God. We don’t try to analyze the worth of human being based on traits like race, ethnicity, intelligence or ability/disability. We are all Children of God made in his image. We all know we would not want our own children to be used and thought of as tools for someone else, we can rest assured God does not want that for his children made in his image either.
These are the seeds that lead inevitably to the assured destruction of slavery. So long as we hold to these principles it seems impossible that people would ever treat other people as property again. But we can also see how the reasoning of the pre-christians (that can indeed lead to our value being reduced based on certain traits) is slipping back into the ethical discourse. As people, for whatever reason, want to distance their views from Christianity they seem to be saying personhood and our worth is based on certain traits we have rather than affirming the four principles I list above that reveal the sanctity of all human life regardless of the traits that person has.
It took far too long because our views were so different from God’s. The Christian (or Jewish view when you consider the arguments from Genesis) view was not the view held by any other ancient people. We believe all humans are connected to God in important ways. For others mastery of everything was good. So what could be better than mastery over other humans? “And there are many kinds both of rulers and subjects and that rule is the better which is exercised over better subjects- for example, to rule over men is better than to rule over wild beasts;” Aristotle Politics Book 1. To the ancients, people were fungible and their value was assessed by their traits, like the value of any other animal or thing.
But once we started to understand our role and that of God’s it was inevitable slavery would go. So long as we hold onto that understanding it can never return. Genesis was a huge part of this understanding. Those who read Genesis as nothing but a scientific text miss so much. (or even primarily a scientific text) It portrays us differently than other myths in important ways. But when people just read it like any other creation myth they miss out on the most important parts.
Saint Gregory, the Bishop of Nyssa, offered his congregation good reasons to reject slavery when he wrote that Homily. Many of the views would be repeated today and throughout history to provide the truest and best foundation for humanism generally.
If I said I am in favor of banning slavery based on the arguments presented by Saint Gregory would I be charged with “forcing my religious views on others?”
Amazing … you write this entire tome and did not make a case for the inclusion of a commandment from your god simply forbidding the owning of human beings.
Thanks for the comment. You raise a fair point and one that is often mentioned on this topic.
IMO it’s often better to give reasons for rules. (as opposed to just giving the whole “because I said so” approach) At least for some people. Others prefer to just be told exactly what they can and cant do and do not want to be bothered with any deeper understanding. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. I have a draft blog addressing the different approaches.
And this reply amount to little more than a theological two step.
Why do some people have such difficulty in offering a simple straightforward answer?
Why, if your god felt it necessary to offer rules for such diverse nonsense as shell fish, fabrics and mensuration did he not bother to include any prohibition on the owning of another human being?
Do you think you might be able to offer a straightforward answer this time, please?
Like I said some people want the reasons for the moral rules some just want to be told. I don’t think it gets any more straightforward then that. Since you call a blog that is a few pages a “tome” you likely want a rule and don’t want any reasoning. That’s fine, but Christianity is for all sorts of people.
Also you seem to be treating ritualistic rules the same as moral rules. Christians tend not to do that just like we treat rules of custom different than moral rules.
As a teaser for my draft blog. By giving moral direction as opposed to moral rules God covers much more ground. He doesn’t have to get into the minutia that rules requires. What does it mean to own someone, what if no one owns someone but if they refuse to work for their employer at the wage
Set by the employer they will be arrested? Or ostracized? Etc etc. reasons and moral directions help us understand more than rules.
Once more,, you are not actually addressing the question directly.
In fact, what you have offered is practically a hand wave.
Let’s try again ….
It seems obvious why Yahweh would issue such commandments as, Thou shall not kill or Thou shall not steal,
Therefore, if Yahweh could then find time to issue commandments regarding seemingly insignificant things such as shellfish, why did he not make a commandment forbidding slavery? eg.
Thou shall not practice slavery.
And please, I don’t need obscure
”what-if” scenarios – we can all do that.
So, as you might instruct a witness in court.
”Please answer the question.”
Nothing suggests you understood or even read my answer. You still seem confused by moral rules versus rules of ritual. But I did give reasons as to why just giving more dos and don’ts is not always the best way to educate people about morality. Those reasons apply to your proposed rule as well. Here are some reasons again:
1) Rules can be read to put an upper limit on our morality.
2) Related to the first issue are the technical issues that arise from rules.
3) People often like to understand why something is outlawed not just learn that it is.
4) By understanding the reason for the moral rule they can then properly understand how to apply it technically.
Those are all good reasons not to have scripture just describe a bunch of specific rules, (including the one you propose) but rather give us a moral direction. You can continue to ignore those answers in your response, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t answer your question. If you think the answers are unsatisfactory perhaps you can say why.
I don’t have any direct access to God’s mind if that is what you mean. I did not have a dream where God specifically said this is why I didn’t give that particular command. But those all seem like good reasons not to fill scripture with specific moral rules like the one you propose.
I read and understood your answer perfectly well, thanks. But I suspect you didn’t take enough time to consider my question.
As Yahweh did not feel the need to offer explanations for a commandment such as Thou shall not kill, and never offered in-depth explanations when he was issuing orders in general then there is no reason why he would need to explain if he had issued the order that Thou shall not keep slaves.
Rather than tackle the answer with genuine integrity you seem to have provided an answer that suits your own agenda and thus avoids having to confront the very reason why Yahweh did not issue such a commandment.
The answer is actually clear as a bell, but I suspect that to address this is very likely the reason you appear to be prevaricating.
And of course, Yahweh in his human guise as Jesus of Nazareth also never issued a command not to own slaves.
If perhaps it was an oversight by Yahweh, why do you think that Jesus never corrected it?
“As Yahweh did not feel the need to offer explanations for a commandment such as Thou shall not kill, …”
Yes he did offer reasons for this command not to kill other humans. For example we unlike other animals are made in God’s image. That we shouldn’t kill each other is just one rule that arises from this explanation of who we are. That we shouldn’t own each other is another. That we shouldn’t discriminate against each other based on skin color or disability or age …. are other examples. But spelling out all sorts of rules is not always the best way to help us advance morally.
What you are basically arguing is that God should have given us more rules that arise from these general principles. But I have given 4 reasons why focus on rules has downsides.
“If perhaps it was an oversight by Yahweh, why do you think that Jesus never corrected it?”
I don’t think it was an oversight. I think over time the jewish people made moral advances based on what God offered them. And God chose to give them further guidance beyond these sorts of rules through the person of Jesus.
Again this is yet another hand wave.
Yahweh did NOT give specific reasons regarding the Thou shalt not kill commandment.
Furthermore, after the ”first murder” and the repercussions it would seem odd that he had had to issue a commandment at all.
No, I am not arguing that Yahweh should have issued more rules because of these principles, but that certain rules should have been made that were not open to any other interpretation . forbidding slavery being one such.
However, as is shown in the bible , not only was nothing said against slavery it was tacitly approved and rules were laid out to govern the keeping of slaves.
The fact that the character Jesus said nothing to countermand his early decrees suggests that, he too approved, if only tacitly of the practice.
So now we have two issues.
The first, which you continue to prevaricate over – why did Yahweh simply not include a law forbidding slavery ( considering Yahweh’s claimed omnipotence your ‘downside’ answer is simply nonsense I’m afraid), and second, why did he not only approve of the practice, but also laid out rules for it.
(And in his Jesus-form obviously still had no problem with either).
“… should have been made that were not open to any other interpretation . forbidding slavery being one such.”
Forbidding slavery is not clear at all and you simply ignored questions I asked about it. Do you mean forbidding slavery except for those who are convicted of crimes? What about prisoners of war can they be forced to move if they don’t want to? Can they be forced to row a boat? What if everyone on the boat will die if they do not contribute? Do you mean we should also ban indentured servitude? In other words you can’t pay someone in advance with the understanding that if they can’t pay they could be forced to work? Is breaking up a strike slavery? I asked other questions earlier that you never answered. I could go on and on on this. I suppose you would have all sorts of rules on this.
But God said treat the least as you would treat me, love your neighbor and even love your enemy. These commands do a much better job advising us what we need to do rather then going through all the minutia about what might be considered “slavery” and what is not.
I gave 4 reasons why rules like don’t have slaves are not the best. You haven’t addressed any of them. Instead you just assert he should have done that instead of giving the more general directions of morality which cover that and more.
Jesus emphasized that we should treat the least as though they were him. His command to love our neighbor went far beyond the legalisms you think God should have continued with.
Again you are prevaricating.
Let’s try another tack and see if you are able to address at least one question directly.
To whom did Yahweh give the (10) commandments as we generally understand them know them?
Ark
You ask: why wouldn’t God simply say Slavery is forbidden? I give you 4 good reasons such rules are less desirable: 1) people want to know the reasons for rules 2) rules tend to cap morality 3) rules are subject to gamesmenship and technicalities and 4) by explaining the basis of rules instead of just announcing rules we can learn how to act morally in many situations not just particulars.
You offer no response at all to 2 and 4. In response to one you say God didn’t tell us why we shouldn’t murder. And I point out he clearly did in Genesis since we are made in God’s image we are seperate from the other animals that we can kill when we want.
In response to 3 you claim a rule forbidding slavery is not open to interpretation. I inform you it certainly is and give you about a half a dozen issues that can and do arise in just understanding what slavery is. You can’t answer a single one yet bumptiously claim I am the one “dancing around.” Directly answering your question and shooting down your responses leaving you with nothing else to say is not dancing around.
Now you say
“Let’s try another tack”
Ok sure if you have some other misgiving then we can change topics.
And now you ask me to tell you to whom Yahweh gave the 10 commandments.
Ark yes that is indeed a completely different tack. And honestly you have shown yourself to be so uninformed and disingenuous that I highly doubt I will get any useful information from you. Therefore you should not expect I will be your research assistant and look up scripture to answer your questions.
But by all means feel free to quote scripture and try to make your point whatever it may be.
I am neither uniformed or disingenuous.
I could have opened with my most recent question but chose to see if you were able to – excuse the colloquialism- join the dots.
A god that is omnipotent and holds life and death in its hand, (Divine Command Theory for example) does not need to explain, and this is clearly apparent from much of the text of the Torah.
Hence my persistence on asking you to state plainly the reason why your god could not simply issue a directive forbidding the owning of another human being (slavery)
However, you continue to prevaricate and try to get me to answer your questions – classic apologetics.
So let’s skip the small talk.
Surely you aware who ( traditionally) received the ten commandments from Yahweh?
For you not to offer an answer is disingenuous.
Therefore, can we presume you accept that it was Moses?
“A god that is omnipotent and holds life and death in its hand, (Divine Command Theory for example) does not need to explain, and this is clearly apparent from much of the text of the Torah.”
Ark it is just that sometimes you seem to use terms in an imprecise way. For example, Divine command theory is not necessarily the same thing as saying God is omnipotent and holds life and death in his hand. Moreover it seems to me not all Christians need to subscribe to divine command theory. I am not going to go into lengthy explanations because you seem to just ignore them anyway.
Moreover whether God “needs” to explain anything is a different question from why would God not give us this specific rule.
But anyway if you have an argument go ahead and make it and I will tell you what I think.
“So let’s skip the small talk.
Surely you aware who ( traditionally) received the ten commandments from Yahweh?
For you not to offer an answer is disingenuous.
Therefore, can we presume you accept that it was Moses?”
Feel free to make your point.
Do you accept that it was Moses who received the ten commandments?
I really don’t have an opinion on whether there was a historical Moses- and what he did or didn’t do – if that is what you mean. I believe that is the understanding from scripture that he did receive them, but I don’t have the quotation.
Again kindly get to your point.
If you have no opinion, then perhaps you can tell me how you believe the commandments were received?
I don’t really have an opinion on that. Am I supposed to?
So from where do you think the ten commandments derived?
Man made or Yahweh made?
I think the morality is part of Gods creation. But scripture comes from people inspired by God. So Scripture is a mix.
How do you know it is inspired by Yahweh?
Lots of reasons. For example Jesus seemed to treat OT scripture as inspired and his miracles suggest he was at least connected with God if not God himself. I don’t really mind if you want to go into off topic discussions but it would be better to address the topic of the blog here. If you want to talk about my views on inspiration or inerrancy this blog might be a better place:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2015/04/14/top-down-and-bottom-up-christianity/
Done …. comment left.
Typo:
menstruation
You Stated — “Amazing … you write this entire tome and did not make a case for the inclusion of a commandment from your god simply forbidding the owning of human beings.”
My Response — “Galatians 5:1
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
Galatians is not Yahweh, neither the character Jesus of Nazareth.
It is the character Saul of Tarsus/Paul and doesn’t even come close to answering the question.
You Stated — “Galatians is not Yahweh, neither the character Jesus of Nazareth.
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
My Response — According to the bible you are incorrect.
You Stated — “It is the character Saul of Tarsus/Paul and doesn’t even come close to answering the question.”
My Response — You didn’t ask a question, you made a statement (see below).
Recap: You Stated — “Amazing … you write this entire tome and did not make a case for the inclusion of a commandment from your god simply forbidding the owning of human beings.”
Recap: My Response — “Galatians 5:1
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
2 Timothy is a forgery.(pseudoepigraphic)
Galatians is not a commandment from your god.
You Stated — “2 Timothy is a forgery.(pseudoepigraphic)
My Response — That’s your opinion but not a fact.
You stated — “Galatians is not a commandment from your god.”
The bible says you are still wrong:
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Not my opinion but based on the the current view of modern biblical scholars.
Furthermore, the verse is written by someone who states that sccriopture is god breathed and is HIS opinion with no
evidence to support such a claim.
Thus, this makes you re-quoting 2 Timothy redundant.
You Stated — “Not my opinion but based on the the current view of modern biblical scholars.”
My Response — I don’t see any scholars listed. I do see your opinion posted so you are incorrect.
You Stated — “Thus, this makes you re-quoting 2 Timothy redundant.”
My Response — Incorrect. I was responding to your post which was about the bible so my response was simply in context.
You are conflating morality (the start of your argument) with validity (your current argument).
If you want to talk about verses then don’t be surprised if verses are in the response but if you want to talk about “is God real” then let’s stop wasting time talking about morality and get to the good stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy
Modern critical scholars argue that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul but by an anonymous author, sometime between 90 and 140 AD.[
And of course, the character Saul of Tarsus/Paul does not feature outside of the bible anywhere in the historical record.
https://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Paul-Pastorals.htm
https://www.insight.org/resources/bible/the-pauline-epistles/second-timothy
Modern critical scholars say you are incorrect.
It would seem that Google has a plethora of scholars on both sides.
Let’s agree to disagree
There is no evidence to support this claim.
”Paul” does not feature outside the bible.
Therefore claiming scripture is god breathed is meaningless.
Taking a position is meaningful to the person taking it and meaningless to those who do not believe it.
So you are incorrect again.
Well, if you consider unsubstantiated claims meaningful then good for you. That will increase you intellectual credibility in spades!
You Stated — “Well, if you consider unsubstantiated claims meaningful then good for you.”
My Response — Your opinion of a claim has no value to the truth of it. If your goal is to convince me or train others then I still say you need a better argument.
My goal is not to convince you of anything.If you are unable to understand what evidence is or refuse to then there isn’t much else I can do.
A claim is nothing more than that.
And you are making the positive claim without any evidence to support it.
You Stated — “And you are making the positive claim without any evidence to support it.”
My Response — What claim did I make?
Your initial claim regarding Galatians , and then your god breathed claim.
You Stated — “Your initial claim regarding Galatians , and then your god breathed claim.”
My Response — Those weren’t claims, they were responses, “as labeled”, to your statements. 1 example below:
Recap: You Stated — “Amazing … you write this entire tome and did not make a case for the inclusion of a commandment from your god simply forbidding the owning of human beings.”
Recap: My Response — “Galatians 5:1
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
But I see where you are going with this so let’s stop wasting time and get to a better starting point. I will make a claim so you can run your process.
My Claim — I personally believe God is real.
Citing a biblical passage to justify a point is in effect making a claim – or at the very least using a plea to authority to justify a belief.
~
And which god would that be?
You Stated — “Citing a biblical passage to justify a point is in effect making a claim – or at the very least using a plea to authority to justify a belief.”
My Response — You are incorrect, it’s clearly labeled “response” to your statement, (recap) you scoffed at the absence of a passage where it seemed appropriate so I provided one, but I like the way you think so let’s use your logic.
Since you stated the following: “Amazing … you write this entire tome and did not make a case for the inclusion of a commandment from your god simply forbidding the owning of human beings.”
You must then be acknowledging the bible as real since you are requesting a passage be presented from it.
Since you do in fact now have a claim from me, maybe we can focus on that since it’s a better argument and will allow me to better understand your position.
You Asked — “And which god would that be?”
My Response — Since God is singular then just God. I didn’t say gods in my claim. My claim was clear. My claim also did not say one of gods.
Recap: My Claim — I personally believe God is real.
Of course the bible is real. I have four copies. So what?
Yes, I noted the capital ‘G’. However, all religions, as far as I am aware, when referring to their god use a capital G so which god are you referring to. It will make ensuing dialogue easier if we use the god’s name. You do know the name of your god I presume?
You Stated — “Of course the bible is real. I have four copies. ”
My Response — Great then we can now focus on the claim rather than this continuous flawed argument.
You Stated — Yes, I noted the capital ‘G’. However, all religions, as far as I am aware, when referring to their god use a capital G so which god are you referring to.
My Response — I’m not sure why caps is relevant to the discussion but let’s test that theory. I will change my claim to allow for your belief in the use of case sensitivity.
My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
I’m curious to see how this applies. I will also repeat myself by saying my claim is still singular.
Right… and what is the name of your god?
You Asked — “Right… and what is the name of your god?”
My Response –I often refer to god as “The Creator”, so we can acknowledge this as the name.
No, as most religions have a creator god – the Dogon for example have Amma, Kali Ma is the Hindu creator god,the Persian gods Ahura Mazda, Nammu from Sumeria … and the list goes on.
So you can see it would be so much better and avoid any more confusion if we refer to the creator god you consider is real. by name
You stated — “No, as most religions have a creator god ….”
In response to my answer– “I often refer to god as “The Creator”, so we can acknowledge this as the name.”
My Response — Although I am curious of your position and beliefs I am not relinquishing my freedom of choice. You don’t get to dictate what I believe, so your order of “No” is rejected. You can accept or ignore my response since it is indeed the name I use on a regular basis (not just for this conversation) but that is the limit of your control in this debate.
I am not dictating what you believe. While I acknowledge your right to call the god you worship by whatever name you choose, the term god is an identifier not a name, any more than me using the term human being as your name.
As we are trying to establish grounds for your claim that your god is real then let’s stop the nonsense and simply refer to your god by its given name, okay?
So, what is the name of the god your think is real?
Thanks.
You Stated — “the term god is an identifier not a name.. So, what is the name of the god your think is real?”
Recap of what I posted: — “I often refer to god as “The Creator”, so we can acknowledge this as the name.”,”…since it is indeed the name I use on a regular basis (not just for this conversation)”
You stated — “..I acknowledge your right to call the god you worship by whatever name you choose”
My Response — Acknowledgement accepted and name provided.
Side Note: Since I didn’t say his “Name” is god your statement seems like a canned response (copy paste type response).
Please focus on our conversation and only what I post and not past conversations with other people. I am an individual with my own beliefs.
I am not sure how your process works but I think you want me to acknowledge a certain world religion in connection with god or in connection with my claim of god.
Let’s speed this up a bit to save time. God existed before writings of god since all writings are about the god they describe (logical structure).
My claim is as follows:
Recap: My Claim — I personally believe God is real.
With an added name reference
I stated that god is called “The Creator”. This can also be lower case for your beliefs if needed.
I never made any claim of any religion so I would like to finish up with our debate of my claim if possible without being side tracked to other arguments.
The Creator is also a title, not a name.
However as you seem to be bent on being obtuse, I will refer to your god as the name he is referred to in the bible, YHWH.
So, what evidence do you have to support your belief/claim that YHWH( Yahweh) is real?
You stated — “..I acknowledge your right to call the god you worship by whatever name you choose”
So in your process providing what is asked for leads to this:
You Stated — “However as you seem to be bent on being obtuse”
obtuse: lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : INSENSITIVE, STUPID
Name calling is fine with me but it doesn’t address the claim and is a waste of time. If possible please focus on my claim and not my level of intelligence since it has no bearing on the truth.
You Stated — “I will refer to your god as the name he is referred to in the bible, YHWH.
So, what evidence do you have to support your belief/claim that YHWH( Yahweh) is real?”
My Response — The Creator is real because all of creation exists.
I will make a new claim to help your process focus on it.
I claim that all of creation is evidence of the creator.
Yes, …. a claim. But what evidence do you have.
And please do not come back with your circular argument, thanks.
You Stated — “Yes, …. a claim. But what evidence do you have.
And please do not come back with your circular argument, thanks.”
My Response — To save time for both of us let’s not waste time repeating ourselves in endless circular debate on both sides.
I proved evidence what issues do you have with what I provided?
You have not proved a thing.
You have merely made a claim.
You made a claim
Again, yet another claim
Everything you have posited do far has been unsubstantiated. And you continue to make circular arguments.
But to speed things up do you:
1. consider yourself to be a theist or deist. 2. Specifically, do you consider the Creator to be the god of the Old Testament Yahweh?
This is better, you are acknowledging my claim now. So we can now progress in the debate. As before we can bypass side arguments on region and religious text since it has no bearing on the claim I made.
Recap: My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
You wanted evidence so I provided “My Evidence”
Recap: — I claim that all of creation is evidence of the creator.
So if I understand your reply correctly you do not accept my evidence but I don’t know why you don’t accept it since you side tracked. Can you elaborate on why you think I should not be convinced by the evidence I provided for the existence of god so I can better understand your position?
You have not provided evidence but merely made a claim.
To recap:
You asked for evidence: “So, what evidence do you have to support your belief/claim ”
I replied with my evidence — “The Creator is real because all of creation exists.”
Your response — “You have not provided evidence but merely made a claim.”
My Conclusion — Since you do not have the ability to explain why my evidence is lacking I have no way of knowing your position or how you came to it.
If you find a way to explain your position in the future let me know , I’m curious.
To conclude I am unconvinced by your argument that my understanding is flawed since your position is limited to just , “merely made a claim.” with no detailed logic or understanding.
If you do not understand the difference between a claim and evidence then I suggest you understand this before you make any more claims.
You Stated — “If you do not understand the difference between a claim and evidence then I suggest you understand this before you make any more claims.”
My Response — Fair enough, in absence of an answer to my question you state I need more education.
If you feel I don’t rise to your level of intellect in this conversation then I will accept your withdraw from the conversation.
Keep in mind that if you continue to debate me after this point I will find it curious as to why.
The term willful ignorance is more appropriate.
That makes more sense, you’re not saying I’m stupid just hard headed, I can accept that.
I replied in the other thread we can close this one out.
You Asked — 1. consider yourself to be a theist or deist. 2. Specifically, do you consider the Creator to be the god of the Old Testament Yahweh?
My Response for 1) — Again this is not part of the debate and does not have anything to do with my claim.
Answers 1) I am by definition a theist since my claim matches the definition (but you already knew that)
Theist definition — a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
Recap: My Claim — I personally believe God is real.
I would rather focus on our current debate since this one is flawed and seems to be a waste of time.
God is the god of everything there is no specific limitation that I am aware of.
Moving forward I will respond to questions outside our debate after the first debate is complete to save time.
So your god is Yahweh/Jesus of Nazareth. This now further weakens your claim.
Unless you can provide evidence for these characters?
Have I provided sufficient evidence for my claim?
To recap yet again: — My Claim — I personally believe God is real.
It is my understanding that you do not believe my evidence which is:
To recap yet again: My Evidence is — “The Creator is real because all of creation exists.”
Your last statement was that I did not have the intellect to understand definitions.
Is it now my understanding that you want to restart our debate regardless of my lack of meeting your intellectual requirements?
If so then I would like for you to answer my question which was ignored.
To recap: My Question was — ” Can you elaborate on why you think I should not be convinced by the evidence I provided for the existence of god so I can better understand your position?”
So your god is Yahweh/Jesus of Nazareth. This now further weakens your claim
Have I provided sufficient evidence for my claim?
To recap yet again: — My Claim — I personally believe God is real.
It is my understanding that you do not believe my evidence which is:
To recap yet again: My Evidence is — “The Creator is real because all of creation exists.”
Your last statement was that I did not have the intellect to understand definitions.
Is it now my understanding that you want to restart our debate regardless of my lack of meeting your intellectual requirements?
If so then I would like for you to answer my question which was ignored.
To recap: My Question was — ” Can you elaborate on why you think I should not be convinced by the evidence I provided for the existence of god so I can better understand your position?”
Because it is not evidence.
You Stated — “Because it is not evidence.”
hmm: Given the simplicity of the response I guess this will suffice:
My Response — But I think it is.
It matters not what you think.
Learn the difference between a claim and evidence.
Then come back to me ….
Your Seemingly Final Answer to my Claim: — “Learn the difference between a claim and evidence. Then come back to me ….”
My Response — So if I understand you correctly my claim is simply a lack of understanding the difference between two words.
Understood. I’m not convinced it’s that simple so I will maintain my current belief that God is real or if that is confusing then: god is real (lowercase for your beliefs).
If you develop better reasons for me not to believe let me know.
claim
1.state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
ev·i·dence
1.the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
And you haven’t provided any facts, to establish that your belief or proposition is true. That is the point.
However, feel free to maintain the belief all you want, but you might as well have a similar belief regarding Santa Claus.
Cute when you four … after that, well ….what would you call an adult who swears blind Santa Claus is real?
You Stated — “And you haven’t provided any facts, to establish that your belief or proposition is true. That is the point.”
My Response — Ok so I think we may be getting somewhere.
My evidence is “all of creation”
You reject that evidence as not being a good reason because it lacks facts. All of creation for you is not factual. You want something more granular that relates to people to provide evidence for why I believe God is real.
I have had personal experiences that prove that God is real to me. Do my personal experiences have any value as evidence outside of myself to you to establish fact?
That is a claim. It is not evidence of Yahweh.
Unless you can support these experiences with evidence then , no.
You Stated — “Unless you can support these experiences with evidence then , no.”
My Response — Understood and that makes sense. One last question for this line of understanding.
Do my personal experiences suffice by my personal belief from your perspective?
Put it down to fatigue, but I am not quite sure what you are asking me here?
If it is what I think, then such god experiences can be induced – you are aware of this I presume?
Correct me if my understanding is off kilter
You Stated — “Correct me if my understanding is off kilter”
My Response — It is off a bit because I didn’t ask about the validity or origin of the experience, so from my perspective the question was ignored for the sake of assumption.
My question is focused on the individual not 3rd parties:
Retry variation — Does the personal experiences of an individual (no matter how profound) suffice for said individual to hold a belief system — from your perspective?
Yes, of course. It is a belief
But to qualify: This does not count as evidence.
We are most definitely getting somewhere now.
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
You are not convinced of my claim due to lack of evidence supplied by me to back the claim. So I provided evidence (below)
To Recap: — My evidence is “all of creation”
You reject that evidence as not being a good reason because it lacks detailed facts.
To provide facts I wanted to submit personal experiences.
From your perspective personal experiences are only valid if they have evidence that can be verified by third parties.
You did acknowledge that a (true) profound experience does justify a belief for the individual (no one else).
Now I would like to try something outside the box.
The US government is by far one of the most powerful organizations to have ever existed and has influence world wide.
On the currency they state in bold letting: “In God We Trust:
In court they declare in legal cases, “act of God”.
Does the most powerful and influential country on earth acknowledging god provide proof of existence?
No. It is just a claim.
You Stated — “No. It is just a claim.”
My Response — Understood.
Now let’s meet your criteria directly.
If I have people that have directly seen my evidence and have verified that it meets the criteria, can their word be used to substantiate my claim?
No.
It is NOT evidence but merely a claim.
To be clear then: You are saying that no matter how many people I show my evidence to they can’t vouch for it once they experience it.
Literally you are saying you alone most be convinced of it.
It has no more merit than me claiming belief in Unicorns as I have ”evidence” of unicorns written in an ancient text from Druids.
I really cannot understand what you are struggling to comprehend here?
You Stated — “I really cannot understand what you are struggling to comprehend here?”
My Response — On my side I see no struggle from asking questions and gaining understanding. If our conversation is a struggle on your side simply stop responding but let’s not waste time side tracking.
Back to the debate: — My question about evidence and those who validate it indicate to me that there is no such thing as evidence via a proxy of other people. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that you must be able to verify all evidence to deem it credible.
If I am wrong please state who can validate evidence outside of yourself.
Correct.
Sorry, I meant to add. Evidence is only evidence if it can be verified, otherwise it is simply a claim.
You Stated — “Sorry, I meant to add. Evidence is only evidence if it can be verified, otherwise it is simply a claim.”
My Response — Can we say that if a hundred people view the evidence and say that it is valid , that we can then say the claim is supported.
I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?
You mean such as the ”500 witnesses” to the risen Jesus of Nazareth, or a group of honest citizens who clam they have encountered Yahweh or 500 scientists that ratify the evidence for evolution?
I Asked — “I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?”
You Asked In Response — “You mean such as the ”500 witnesses” to the risen Jesus of Nazareth, or a group of honest citizens who clam they have encountered Yahweh or 500 scientists that ratify the evidence for evolution?”
My Response — Definition — trust·wor·thy
adjective
able to be relied on as honest or truthful.
“leave a spare key with a trustworthy neighbor”
To be clear anyone who is deemed trustworthy. Specific locations, major events and job titles are irrelevant and would be nonsensical in relation to the definition.
Then I shall elaborate..
The 500 witness tale is not trustworthy and neither is it evidence.
The honest citizens claim re Yahweh is not trustworthy even though each individual may be honest.
500 scientists ratifying evolution is based on evidence not their job specs. Though it would be difficult if not impossible for a non-scientist to ratify evolutionary claims without the background qualifications)
Then I suggest you be specific regarding what exactly you are trying to demonstrate and stop ”beating about the (burning ) bush)”.
I Asked — “I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?”
You Asked In Response — “You mean such as the ”500 witnesses” to the risen Jesus of Nazareth, or a group of honest citizens who clam they have encountered Yahweh or 500 scientists that ratify the evidence for evolution?”
My Response — Definition — trust·wor·thy
adjective
able to be relied on as honest or truthful.
“leave a spare key with a trustworthy neighbor”
To be clear anyone who is deemed trustworthy. Specific locations, major events and job titles are irrelevant and would be nonsensical in relation to the definition.
So You Replied — “The 500 witness… claim re Yahweh… 500 scientists ratifying… ratify evolutionary claims…”
My Response — Somehow when you are asked direct questions you feel the need to attach them to alternative self reflected viewpoints.
My question is about practicality not your views on religion or science. I live in a place and have neighbors and friends who are trustworthy so I asked a seemingly simple question, “can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people”.
I’m trying to establish what a personal encounter, with material or event, could be seen as evidence of a claim if verified by people who are trustworthy.
Question Ver2 — Can everyday people, that are alive right now, in my city, regardless of education level, age, color, gender, sexuality, religious or atheist belief, etc be credible voices to proxy validity of evidence I have in relation to my claim if they are deemed trustworthy?
If their claim can be verified then, yes.
You stated — “If their claim can be verified then, yes.”
My Response — I have the claim — They verify the claim
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
To Recap: — I provide evidence that they, (trustworthy people), review and confirm in a reasonable manor as acceptable. Do you acknowledge their review as valid to confirm my evidence of my claim of my personal belief?
Is this personal belief in the existence of Yahweh?
You Asked — “Is this personal belief in the existence of Yahweh?”
My Response — It is still only what was stated in our conversation in relation to my direct and consistent statements:
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
Also to address names yet again:
Recap of what you stated — “..I acknowledge your right to call the god you worship by whatever name you choose”
Recap of what I provided: — “I often refer to god as “The Creator”, so we can acknowledge this as the name.”
If possible let’s focus only on my claim and where we are now in the conversation since backtracking to earlier arguments that have been detailed in our responses is a waste of time (we’ve already covered this, asked and answered)
Moving on:
I mentioned this earlier in our conversation, (“Now let’s meet your criteria directly.”)
So the evidence can be whatever you would practically deem as reasonable evidence.
My question is still unanswered so variation is needed:
Retry Variation 2 — If I provide evidence that, (trustworthy people), review and confirm meets your criteria, do you acknowledge their review as valid to support my claim?
I acknowledge they believe in your belief.
You still have no evidence of said claim.
I asked — “If I provide evidence that, (trustworthy people), review and confirm meets your criteria, do you acknowledge their review as valid to support my claim?”
Your Response — “I acknowledge they believe in your belief.
You still have no evidence of said claim.”
My Response — Ok, now I have a much better understanding of your position.
So when you provide criteria for truth even if others meet the criteria you will reject the conclusion if it doesn’t meet you belief.
We can move on to the final question and I will understand your position.
My Question — If you have personal experience that you believe validates my claim do you think that it is sufficient evidence for you yourself?
Can the experience be,
a) independently verified
and
b) repeated)
You Asked — “Can the experience be,
a) independently verified
and
b) repeated)”
Because of my Question — “If you have personal experience that you believe validates my claim do you think that it is sufficient evidence for you yourself?”
My Answer –:
A) No because it is by definition a personal experience.
B) Yes, as many times as you feel is needed.
Then it is a claim and not evidence.
Understood.
From your perspective my claim:
“I personally believe god is real.”
Cannot be confirmed or verified by any organization, government, person, or group of people.
You also state that everything in existence cannot be used as evidence nor can anyone existing vouch for any evidence even if it meets your personal standards.
You also state that you yourself cannot validate any evidence.
Given those parameters I understand your position and acknowledge your view point.
Final question:
Do you believe that god is not real or do you not know for lack of evidence?
Currently, yes, this is the position. There is no evidence.
This is somewhat ambiguous, as I used the example of 500 scientists.
The core problem here is your phrasing and your refusal to acknowledge what evidence and is not.
Again, another misleading/ambiguous statement.
Example. Claim:There are dinosaur fossils.
This claim can be verified simply by providing a dinosaur fossil.
Either you do not understand or you do and have fro the outset attempted a form of ”gotcha” argument.
Are you referring to a particular god or gods in general?
I Stated — “You also state that everything in existence cannot be used as evidence nor can anyone existing vouch for any evidence even if it meets your personal standards.”
Your Response — “This is somewhat ambiguous… The core problem here is your phrasing and your refusal to acknowledge what evidence and is not.”
My Response — You are incorrect since I stated directly, “evidence that meets your personal standards or criteria”, multiple times. So it would be whatever you (singular) want it to be and thus cannot be ambiguous by definition.
am·big·u·ous
adjective
(of language) open to more than one interpretation; having a double meaning.
“ambiguous phrases”
unclear or inexact because a choice between alternatives has not been made.
My Statement — “You also state that you yourself cannot validate any evidence.”
Your Response — “Again, another misleading/ambiguous statement.”
My Response — You are incorrect, scroll up, you stated the following.
I Asked — “If you have personal experience that you believe validates my claim do you think that it is sufficient evidence for you yourself?”
Your Answer was — “Then it is a claim and not evidence.”
For this part if your answer was incorrect then please re-answer. If it was correct then your current response is incorrect.
You Stated — “Either you do not understand or you do and have fro the outset attempted a form of ”gotcha” argument.”
My Response — Since I acknowledged your position this statement is nonsensical.
I clearly Stated — “Given those parameters I understand your position and acknowledge your view point.”
We also have a very detailed thread of questions and answers with no gotcha points listed. We have simply discussed what you believe and why in relation to my personal claim. I’m not even sure what a “gotcha” would be since we are talking about personal view points. I think we can move away from anything related to concepts of traps since they don’t lend to truth or further the discussion
You Asked — “Are you referring to a particular god or gods in general?”
My Response — Again we are debating my claim so it would only be in reference to that claim:
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
To Recap the Question — Do you believe that god is not real or do you not know for lack of evidence?
I would like to avoid the plural singular discussion again if possible (since it’s asked and answered) and just seek an answer to the new question.
Then the fault is mine for failing to understand your points.
However, in light of this extended thread that has tended to meander at times, the ONLY point that I consider relevant is:
Your claim regarding your personal belief in your god/Yahweh that has no evidence to support it.
As to your question
I have no belief in gods as there is no evidence to support any such claims.
My Question — “Do you believe that god is not real or do you not know for lack of evidence?”
Your Answer — “As to your question
I have no belief in gods as there is no evidence to support any such claims.”
My Response — I find this interesting given our conversation since it leaves the possibility of god open on your side.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
I now understand your perspective, thank you.
I find it interesting but limiting in it’s application. It has an 8000 foot view of what cannot be allowed, making it challenging for granular individual experiences.
AGAIN .. The only relevant point of this entire thread is the fact that there is no evidence to support your claim.
Namely, that your god is real.
And that is it, I’m afraid.
The rest of your comments are simply a word salad in an apparent attempt to find some sort of loophole.
You Stated — “AGAIN .. The only relevant point of this entire thread is the fact that there is no evidence to support your claim.”
My Response — You are incorrect. As noted before you perceive things from a self supporting viewpoint but a conversation with other people exceeds that limitation. There were in fact two relevant points to this thread. The first, as you stated, was to seek “evidence to support my claim” but the second, which is oblivious to you, was to seek what evidence would be acceptable. What I have learned from the second is the following:
No evidence from the entire creation (as a whole) is acceptable
No evidence from other people is acceptable
No evidence from myself or you is acceptable
No evidence from an organization is acceptable
For your point you learned that I do not have any evidence outside of those parameters.
Since this is your personal requirement I concede that I cannot in fact provide any evidence outside of those parameters and that I now understand your position more clearly.
You Stated — “The rest of your comments are simply a word salad in an apparent attempt to find some sort of loophole.”
My Response — Personal comments aside, (since they have no value), there is no loophole since there is no law or predefined requirement, that would be nonsensical. This was an open discussion where neither of us is held to any requirement or process so loopholes make no sense.
I understand your position now and have no more questions.
I am fully open to any questions you have that were not addressed to make sure you were fully answered in relation to the claim. If none then thank you for your time and patience it was eye opening.
I am also very interested in addressing any desire you have to debate me about the bible or any other topic but from one of your posts dedicated to that topic not this thread. I will haply join those discussions if you want me there. If not then I fully understand given the numerous questions I ask can be tiresome for some.
Nope. The only relevance is the fact that there is no evidence to support your claim. (,a fact you have yet to acknowledge.)
And this was answered from the get go.
You have posted an incessant stream of irreverent questions to find some way of justifying your belief that there is evidence to support your belief.
This is on a par to the nonsense assertion from many Christians that religion and science are compatible.
If you are as pedantic about the bible then I would be wasting my time.
You Stated — “Nope. The only relevance is ….”
My Response — You are still incorrect. Relevance is relative to the individual and since we are two separate people there are in fact two separate view points.
Yours being evidence is needed to support a claim as long as it is not from all of creation (as a whole), other people, from myself or you, or any organization.
Since I do not have any evidence outside of those parameters nuff said.
You Stated — “If you are as pedantic about the bible then I would be wasting my time.”
My Response — Understood. You feel debating me on your site would be problematic. I can understand that.
Since neither of us have any more questions I would imagine this thread is complete.
You are trying to establish veracity regarding your viewpoint concerning your belief in and the veracity of your god.
To date you have failed abysmally.
Not problematic at all.If your approach was in any way similar to the way you have approached your belief in go claim then you would have gained no clearer understandng of evidence.
Such a level of willful ignorance on your part would make discussion rather pointless, wouldn’t you say?
You Stated — You are trying to establish veracity regarding your viewpoint concerning your belief in and the veracity of your god.
My Response — You are incorrect, I did not provide at any time any facts so it would be nonsensical to state that I was trying to establish the veracity of anything. Your statement doesn’t make any sense.
ve·rac·i·ty
noun
conformity to facts; accuracy.
We ended our debate at the early point of establishing what a valid confirmation of evidence would be. We never got to the stage where we could have debate the facts.
You Stated — “Such a level of willful ignorance on your part ”
My Response — Since my level of intelligence has no bearing on the truth your statement has no value.
Since you have not added any new information the original conclusion still stands.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
You have not provided any evidence re your claim for me to validate.
Wrong. Your claim as it stands has no evidence to warrant belief on my part. That you believe is solely based on culture, and indoctrination in some form or another.
You Stated — “You have not provided any evidence re your claim for me to validate.”
My conclusion notes included this line — “You cannot validate any evidence I provide”, because you stated the following answer for my question below during our discussion.
I asked you — “Do my personal experiences suffice by my personal belief from your perspective?”
You Responded — “Yes, of course. It is a belief
But to qualify: This does not count as evidence.”
Thus — “You cannot validate any evidence I provide” because “YOU” do not recognize it as evidence just belief.
We were very thorough in our discussion, there is no need to repeat or continue unless you have something new to add.
Because of this conclusion line: — “You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.”
Your Feedback — “Wrong. Your claim as it stands has no evidence to warrant belief on my part.”
My Response — That is nonsensical since I am stating the exact same thing you are, that you do not believe my claim.
As for the second part when you stated, “That you believe is solely based on culture, and indoctrination in some form or another.”
Since we never talked about “WHY I believe”, your statement is just an assumption and has no value. Had we found a path to what could validate evidence we most likely would have progressed to “WHY I believe”, but this is irrelevant since we have concluded this discussion.
Since you have not added any new information the original conclusion still stands.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
You have not provided any evidence so how do you know it cannot be validated?
Provide evidence and we will see ….
You Asked — “You have not provided any evidence so how do you know it cannot be validated?”
My Response — This is what we discussed earlier with the questions you answered. My claim, name used, evidence and lastly validation of evidence.
You determined two things that were required for evidence, 1 granular facts and two valid proof.
You established that I cannot validate any evidence as proof, that you could not validate any evidence as proof, that other people no matter how many could not validate any evidence as proof. (No matter how profound the proof)
All of this is in the questions asked and answered by you in the post. Since none of the above can be validation of any proof then the proof cannot validate any claim.
If this changes and you tell me that evidence can be validated from any one of those sources then that would be new to this debate. I would then have sources to provide validation of my evidence.
Since you have not added any new information the original conclusion still stands.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
Question: Have you provided any evidence?
You Asked — “Have you provided any evidence?”
My Response — To Keep it short here is the break down of what we discussed. I can paste each comment from you to me that established it but hopefully we don’t need to recap it again and this will suffice.
You stated that any evidence that I have is just a claim no matter how profound the evidence.
If I have anyone or any number of people vouch for the evidence meeting (any and all criteria “YOU” provide), it is still just a claim and not evidence.
So we then discussed what if you yourself saw the evidence and were fully convinced it was real… but that too was stated by YOU to be just a claim even when you vouch for it.
So the challenge became very simple to understand (regardless of being fair or not).
You require evidence that can be validated directly by everyone on Earth.
I could argue that this type of evidence is not required for anything else and that we normally vouch for evidence via third parties BUT at the same time given the fact that I am talking about GOD I see the logic behind it so I concerned that I understood your position and came to a conclusion. In short the larger the claim the greater the evidence required.
It’s possible that a god claim requires each individual who wants to validate it to experience evidence directly as proof before reasonably believing.
Possibly a more complex mapping is possible for me to make for just this type of discussion.
I would need to explore more complex scenarios involving family structures or institutions where trust was an absolute to know for sure, but in this argument, that was the conclusion I came to so we have no more need to debate the topic.
Since you have not added any new information the original conclusion still stands.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
This is a hand wave .
The answer I was looking for was Yes or No.
Have another go.
Remember, the answer is either Yes or No.
You Stated — “Remember, the answer is either Yes or No.”
My Response — The question was redundant, scroll up, asked and answered 3 times and then debated by both of us ad nauseum.
Circular arguments are nonsensical. Either ask new questions or be satisfied with the same response.
I don’t consider you have provided an answer. Maybe I am just confused? Wouldn’t be the first time.
So to avoid any more confusion let’s keep it simple and just get this out of the way.
Have you provided evidence for your claim. Yes or No?
You Asked — “Have you provided evidence for your claim. Yes or No?”
My Response — Not only “YES” but here it is in full per our discussion. If there is a way to not go over what we have gone over that would be great. Also I believe we closed this debate since we have a conclusion that you didn’t disagree with.
You Asked — “what evidence do you have to support your belief/claim ”
I answered — “I will make a new claim to help your process focus on it.
I claim that all of creation is evidence of the creator.”
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 10:12 am
I claim that all of creation is evidence of the creator
Yes, …. a claim. But what evidence do you have.
And please do not come back with your circular argument, thanks.
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 10:27 am
My Response — To save time for both of us let’s not waste time repeating ourselves in endless circular debate on both sides.
I proved evidence what issues do you have with what I provided?
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 10:41 am
You have not proved a thing.
You have merely made a claim.
I claim that all of creation is evidence of the creator
You made a claim
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 12:42 pm
So if I understand your reply correctly you do not accept my evidence but I don’t know why you don’t accept it since you side tracked. Can you elaborate on why you think I should not be convinced by the evidence I provided for the existence of god so I can better understand your position?
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 12:48 pm
You have not provided evidence but merely made a claim.
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 12:59 pm
To recap:
You asked for evidence: “So, what evidence do you have to support your belief/claim ”
I replied with my evidence — “The Creator is real because all of creation exists.”
Your response — “You have not provided evidence but merely made a claim.”
My Conclusion — Since you do not have the ability to explain why my evidence is lacking I have no way of knowing your position or how you came to it.
If you find a way to explain your position in the future let me know , I’m curious.
To conclude I am unconvinced by your argument that my understanding is flawed since your position is limited to just , “merely made a claim.” with no detailed logic or understanding.
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 1:10 pm
If you do not understand the difference between a claim and evidence then I suggest you understand this before you make any more claims.
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 1:29 pm
You Stated — “If you do not understand the difference between a claim and evidence then I suggest you understand this before you make any more claims.”
My Response — Fair enough, in absence of an answer to my question you state I need more education.
If you feel I don’t rise to your level of intellect in this conversation then I will accept your withdraw from the conversation.
Keep in mind that if you continue to debate me after this point I will find it curious as to why.
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 1:35 pm
Have I provided sufficient evidence for my claim?
Is it now my understanding that you want to restart our debate regardless of my lack of meeting your intellectual requirements?
If so then I would like for you to answer my question which was ignored.
To recap: My Question was — ” Can you elaborate on why you think I should not be convinced by the evidence I provided for the existence of god so I can better understand your position?”
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 1:40 pm
Because it is not evidence.
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 2:15 pm
You Stated — “Because it is not evidence.”
hmm: Given the simplicity of the response I guess this will suffice:
My Response — But I think it is.
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 2:27 pm
It matters not what you think.
Learn the difference between a claim and evidence.
Then come back to me ….
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 3:17 pm
Your Seemingly Final Answer to my Claim: — “Learn the difference between a claim and evidence. Then come back to me ….”
My Response — So if I understand you correctly my claim is simply a lack of understanding the difference between two words.
Understood. I’m not convinced it’s that simple so I will maintain my current belief that God is real or if that is confusing then: god is real (lowercase for your beliefs).
If you develop better reasons for me not to believe let me know.
claim
1.state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
ev·i·dence
1.the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
Arkenatensaid:August 11, 2019 at 3:49 pm
ev·i·dence
1.the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
And you haven’t provided any facts, to establish that your belief or proposition is true. That is the point.
However, feel free to maintain the belief all you want, but you might as well have a similar belief regarding Santa Claus.
Cute when you four … after that, well ….what would you call an adult who swears blind Santa Claus is real?
Lander7said:August 11, 2019 at 6:09 pm
You Stated — “And you haven’t provided any facts, to establish that your belief or proposition is true. That is the point.”
My Response — Ok so I think we may be getting somewhere.
My evidence is “all of creation”
You reject that evidence as not being a good reason because it lacks facts. All of creation for you is not factual. You want something more granular that relates to people to provide evidence for why I believe God is real.
I have had personal experiences that prove that God is real to me. Do my personal experiences have any value as evidence outside of myself to you to establish fact?
Arkenatensaid:August 12, 2019 at 5:35 am
My evidence is “all of creation”
That is a claim. It is not evidence of Yahweh.
I have had personal experiences that prove that God is real to me. Do my personal experiences have any value as evidence outside of myself to you to establish fact?
Unless you can support these experiences with evidence then , no.
Lander7said:August 12, 2019 at 5:19 pm
You Stated — “Unless you can support these experiences with evidence then , no.”
My Response — Understood and that makes sense. One last question for this line of understanding.
Do my personal experiences suffice by my personal belief from your perspective?
Arkenatensaid:August 13, 2019 at 5:43 am
Put it down to fatigue, but I am not quite sure what you are asking me here?
If it is what I think, then such god experiences can be induced – you are aware of this I presume?
Correct me if my understanding is off kilter
Lander7said:August 13, 2019 at 6:10 am
You Stated — “Correct me if my understanding is off kilter”
My Response — It is off a bit because I didn’t ask about the validity or origin of the experience, so from my perspective the question was ignored for the sake of assumption.
My question is focused on the individual not 3rd parties:
Retry variation — Does the personal experiences of an individual (no matter how profound) suffice for said individual to hold a belief system — from your perspective?
Arkenatensaid:August 13, 2019 at 6:13 am
Yes, of course. It is a belief
But to qualify: This does not count as evidence.
Lander7said:August 13, 2019 at 6:01 pm
We are most definitely getting somewhere now.
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
You are not convinced of my claim due to lack of evidence supplied by me to back the claim. So I provided evidence (below)
To Recap: — My evidence is “all of creation”
You reject that evidence as not being a good reason because it lacks detailed facts.
To provide facts I wanted to submit personal experiences.
From your perspective personal experiences are only valid if they have evidence that can be verified by third parties.
You did acknowledge that a (true) profound experience does justify a belief for the individual (no one else).
Now I would like to try something outside the box.
The US government is by far one of the most powerful organizations to have ever existed and has influence world wide.
On the currency they state in bold letting: “In God We Trust:
In court they declare in legal cases, “act of God”.
Does the most powerful and influential country on earth acknowledging god provide proof of existence?
Arkenatensaid:August 14, 2019 at 12:52 pm
No. It is just a claim.
Lander7said:August 14, 2019 at 2:54 pm
You Stated — “No. It is just a claim.”
My Response — Understood.
Now let’s meet your criteria directly.
If I have people that have directly seen my evidence and have verified that it meets the criteria, can their word be used to substantiate my claim?
Arkenatensaid:August 14, 2019 at 4:21 pm
No.
It is NOT evidence but merely a claim.
Lander7said:August 14, 2019 at 6:43 pm
To be clear then: You are saying that no matter how many people I show my evidence to they can’t vouch for it once they experience it.
Literally you are saying you alone most be convinced of it.
Arkenatensaid:August 15, 2019 at 3:52 am
It has no more merit than me claiming belief in Unicorns as I have ”evidence” of unicorns written in an ancient text from Druids.
I really cannot understand what you are struggling to comprehend here?
Lander7said:August 15, 2019 at 5:09 am
You Stated — “I really cannot understand what you are struggling to comprehend here?”
My Response — On my side I see no struggle from asking questions and gaining understanding. If our conversation is a struggle on your side simply stop responding but let’s not waste time side tracking.
Back to the debate: — My question about evidence and those who validate it indicate to me that there is no such thing as evidence via a proxy of other people. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that you must be able to verify all evidence to deem it credible.
If I am wrong please state who can validate evidence outside of yourself.
Arkenatensaid:August 15, 2019 at 6:13 am
Correct.
Arkenatensaid:August 15, 2019 at 6:14 am
Sorry, I meant to add. Evidence is only evidence if it can be verified, otherwise it is simply a claim.
Lander7said:August 15, 2019 at 6:13 pm
You Stated — “Sorry, I meant to add. Evidence is only evidence if it can be verified, otherwise it is simply a claim.”
My Response — Can we say that if a hundred people view the evidence and say that it is valid , that we can then say the claim is supported.
I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 1:12 am
I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?
You mean such as the ”500 witnesses” to the risen Jesus of Nazareth, or a group of honest citizens who clam they have encountered Yahweh or 500 scientists that ratify the evidence for evolution?
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 6:03 am
I Asked — “I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?”
You Asked In Response — “You mean such as the ”500 witnesses” to the risen Jesus of Nazareth, or a group of honest citizens who clam they have encountered Yahweh or 500 scientists that ratify the evidence for evolution?”
My Response — Definition — trust·wor·thy
adjective
able to be relied on as honest or truthful.
“leave a spare key with a trustworthy neighbor”
To be clear anyone who is deemed trustworthy. Specific locations, major events and job titles are irrelevant and would be nonsensical in relation to the definition.
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 6:24 am
Then I shall elaborate..
The 500 witness tale is not trustworthy and neither is it evidence.
The honest citizens claim re Yahweh is not trustworthy even though each individual may be honest.
500 scientists ratifying evolution is based on evidence not their job specs. Though it would be difficult if not impossible for a non-scientist to ratify evolutionary claims without the background qualifications)
Then I suggest you be specific regarding what exactly you are trying to demonstrate and stop ”beating about the (burning ) bush)”.
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 7:31 am
I Asked — “I am asking, can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people?”
You Asked In Response — “You mean such as the ”500 witnesses” to the risen Jesus of Nazareth, or a group of honest citizens who clam they have encountered Yahweh or 500 scientists that ratify the evidence for evolution?”
My Response — Definition — trust·wor·thy
adjective
able to be relied on as honest or truthful.
“leave a spare key with a trustworthy neighbor”
To be clear anyone who is deemed trustworthy. Specific locations, major events and job titles are irrelevant and would be nonsensical in relation to the definition.
So You Replied — “The 500 witness… claim re Yahweh… 500 scientists ratifying… ratify evolutionary claims…”
My Response — Somehow when you are asked direct questions you feel the need to attach them to alternative self reflected viewpoints.
My question is about practicality not your views on religion or science. I live in a place and have neighbors and friends who are trustworthy so I asked a seemingly simple question, “can we trust the validity of evidence verified by a group of trustworthy people”.
I’m trying to establish what a personal encounter, with material or event, could be seen as evidence of a claim if verified by people who are trustworthy.
Question Ver2 — Can everyday people, that are alive right now, in my city, regardless of education level, age, color, gender, sexuality, religious or atheist belief, etc be credible voices to proxy validity of evidence I have in relation to my claim if they are deemed trustworthy?
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 7:47 am
If their claim can be verified then, yes.
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 8:17 am
You stated — “If their claim can be verified then, yes.”
My Response — I have the claim — They verify the claim
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
To Recap: — I provide evidence that they, (trustworthy people), review and confirm in a reasonable manor as acceptable. Do you acknowledge their review as valid to confirm my evidence of my claim of my personal belief?
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 9:25 am
I acknowledge they believe in your belief.
You still have no evidence of said claim.
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 9:34 am
I asked — “If I provide evidence that, (trustworthy people), review and confirm meets your criteria, do you acknowledge their review as valid to support my claim?”
Your Response — “I acknowledge they believe in your belief.
You still have no evidence of said claim.”
My Response — Ok, now I have a much better understanding of your position.
So when you provide criteria for truth even if others meet the criteria you will reject the conclusion if it doesn’t meet you belief.
We can move on to the final question and I will understand your position.
My Question — If you have personal experience that you believe validates my claim do you think that it is sufficient evidence for you yourself?
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 9:36 am
Can the experience be,
a) independently verified
and
b) repeated)
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 9:40 am
You Asked — “Can the experience be,
a) independently verified
and
b) repeated)”
Because of my Question — “If you have personal experience that you believe validates my claim do you think that it is sufficient evidence for you yourself?”
My Answer –:
A) No because it is by definition a personal experience.
B) Yes, as many times as you feel is needed.
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 9:42 am
Then it is a claim and not evidence.
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 9:56 am
Understood.
From your perspective my claim:
“I personally believe god is real.”
Cannot be confirmed or verified by any organization, government, person, or group of people.
You also state that everything in existence cannot be used as evidence nor can anyone existing vouch for any evidence even if it meets your personal standards.
You also state that you yourself cannot validate any evidence.
Given those parameters I understand your position and acknowledge your view point.
Final question:
Do you believe that god is not real or do you not know for lack of evidence?
Arkenatensaid:August 16, 2019 at 10:45 am
Then the fault is mine for failing to understand your points.
However, in light of this extended thread that has tended to meander at times, the ONLY point that I consider relevant is:
Your claim regarding your personal belief in your god/Yahweh that has no evidence to support it.
As to your question
I have no belief in gods as there is no evidence to support any such claims.
Lander7said:August 16, 2019 at 11:06 am
My Question — “Do you believe that god is not real or do you not know for lack of evidence?”
Your Answer — “As to your question
I have no belief in gods as there is no evidence to support any such claims.”
My Response — I find this interesting given our conversation since it leaves the possibility of god open on your side.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
I now understand your perspective, thank you.
I find it interesting but limiting in it’s application. It has an 8000 foot view of what cannot be allowed, making it challenging for granular individual experiences.
So the answer is ‘No’.
Great.
Now, is there anything else you would like to add?
I posted –“Not only “YES” but here it is in full per our discussion. If there is a way to not go over what we have gone over that would be great.”
You Replied — “So the answer is ‘No’.
Great.
My Response — Now that you fully understand and have acknowledged other possibilities, great.
If you need anymore help let me know.
What you consider evidence is not evidence, but merely a claim, as was explained to you from the get go, so the answer remains ‘No’.
You Stated — ” so the answer remains ‘No’.”
My Response — I provided you responded so the answer is still Yes”
Until you have a more convincing argument let’s agree to disagree.
I don’t need to be more convincing as you haven’t provided evidence. What you believe is evidence is simply a claim. This has been explained to you, so, either you are being willfully ignorant or you need to look up the word.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
I now understand your perspective, thank you.
I find it interesting but limiting in it’s application. It has an 8000 foot view of what cannot be allowed, making it challenging for granular individual experiences.
When you have a more convincing argument let me know, until then I will provide you with the existing answer since you haven’t added anything new.
Nothing needs to be added, as it is clear you do not understand the term evidence or you do understand are now simply behaving like a Dick.
I shall now retire to watch some football.
You may have the pleasure of some mental masturbation and prattle off your refrain.
nar·cis·sist
noun
a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
Conclusion:
I have a claim.
I must provide evidence to support my claim.
That evidence cannot be all of existence.
No person, people or organization can validate any evidence I provide.
I myself cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You cannot validate any evidence I provide.
You yourself do not believe my claim but do not disbelieve the possibility of it.
I now understand your perspective, thank you.
I find it interesting but limiting in it’s application. It has an 8000 foot view of what cannot be allowed, making it challenging for granular individual experiences.
When you have a more convincing argument let me know, until then I will provide you with the existing answer since you haven’t added anything new.
read this ….
https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/2019/08/17/debating-australian-christian-pastor-and-apologist-david-robertson/
Will do
For what’s worth. Your comments would look better and read a lot easier if you block quoted.
I was thinking that after I saw yours. I was going to look it up. Are you just using a quote mark or some kind of html code?
Oh, and for the record, you do acknowledge that ”the Creator” (your god) is Yahweh.
You Stated — “Oh, and for the record, you do acknowledge that ”the Creator” (your god) is Yahweh.
My Response — What I acknowledge or do not acknowledge about the bible has no bearing on my claim since god existed before the bible.
Again, please focus on our current debate so we can finish up and I can better understand your position.
I will be happy to have another debate with you afterwords on religions, the bible or whatever you believe in.
To Recap: — My Claim — I personally believe god is real.
Here is another excellent article on the Pastorals.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/biblical-literature/The-Pastoral-Letters-I-and-II-Timothy-and-Titus
Dueling links activate:
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/is-there-evidence-paul-is-the-author-of-the-pastoral-epistles/
You Stated — “Understanding the ancient world is often difficult for those who were raised in a Christian Culture. ”
My Response — This is an interesting statement but not factual, unless there is evidence to back it up.
Example: “Understanding the ancient world is often difficult for those who were raised in a non-Christian Culture.”
Are statements are equal.
Those 2 statements are different and communicate different meanings. I am not sure what you mean by “equal.” My claim that you quote says nothing about non-christian cultures or what would or would not be easy for them to understand.
As far evidence for my claim “Understanding the ancient world is often difficult for those who were raised in a Christian Culture.” I do not think it is very controversial. I live in a Christian culture and know others who live in a christian culture and it is hard for me and others to understand how slavery could have been so easily and widely accepted in the ancient world.
Many facts do not have evidence to back them up. Being factual in the sense that something really is the case or was the case does not require that we have evidence.
https://trueandreasonable.co/2017/04/24/scientific-imperialism-what-is-a-fact/
But I think there is evidence to support my claim. If you disagree feel free to gather your own evidence. Ask people from a christian culture if they have difficulty understanding why slavery was so universally accepted in ancient world. If they say they do then there is your evidence. If they say its easy to understand ask them why it is that it was accepted. See if the answers agree. If they don’t agree then maybe they have more difficulty with understanding the ancient world then they think.
You Stated — “I am not sure what you mean by “equal.” My claim that you quote says nothing about non-christian cultures or what would or would not be easy for them to understand.”
My Response — “I’m saying that your statement is correct and so is mine since neither statement has any real proof to offer. We are both equally correct.
You Stated — I live in a Christian culture and know others who live in a Christian culture and it is hard for me and others to understand how slavery could have been so easily and widely accepted in the ancient world.”
My Response — I live in a Christian culture and know others who live in a Christian culture and it is easy to understand why people had slaves. I’m also a Christian so maybe I’m even more knowledgeable on the subject… if being Christian somehow lends credibility to understanding this topic.
You Stated — “Being factual in the sense that something really is the case or was the case does not require that we have evidence.”
My Response — I believe I said that in my first reply when I indicated that your facts don’t have proof nor do you seem to have the need to have any to prove your point.
You Stated — “Ask people from a Christian culture if they have difficulty understanding why slavery was so universally accepted in the ancient world.”
My Response — I asked myself (Christian) and it seemed like an easy answer, “greed”. Nothing hard to understand at all.
Thanks for the comments.
“My Response — “I’m saying that your statement is correct and so is mine since neither statement has any real proof to offer. We are both equally correct.”
I think I am just saying I would word it a bit differently. When I say a statement is “correct” I usually mean it is “true.” And a statement is true if it accords with reality. Whether something accords with reality or not is not dependent on the evidence or proof I have for believing it.
Now honestly I have no idea if the North star has any planets orbiting it. So I have no reason to think one way or another. Maybe there are good reasons to think one way or another but I am not aware of them. However that lack of good reasons does not mean the statement:
1) The north Star has a planet orbiting it.
and
2) The north Star does not have a planet orbiting it.
are equally correct. One is entirely correct and one is entirely not correct.
Do you see what I am saying? I think this is important because many people seem to think they are ok believing not X because if X were a fact there would have to be good reason to believe it.
As far as “Greed” explaining why people allowed slavery for so long in so many different cultures that is what we think now. But of course people in Ancient times defended slavery and did not see it as simply an evil manifestation of greed. People in ancient times did have notions of right and wrong and they just thought slavery was not wrong.
You Stated — “As far as “Greed” explaining why people allowed slavery for so long in so many different cultures that is what we think now. But of course people in Ancient times defended slavery and did not see it as simply an evil manifestation of greed. People in ancient times did have notions of right and wrong and they just thought slavery was not wrong.”
My Response — So are saying that slaves in ancient times did not think slavery was wrong? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing for slaves in ancient times? That older slavery is much better than modern slavery?
Are you saying that in ancient times if a poor man stole from a rich man it would have been ok since there was no understanding of right and wrong?
The truth you believe is relative to your knowledge and understanding but it is just an opinion, not a fact.
Let’s agree to disagree.
On a side note: I find your articles very interesting and stimulating to the thought process, I look forward to reading more of them.
Lander:
“My Response — So are saying that slaves in ancient times did not think slavery was wrong?”
Yes it appears so. Many times people who were slaves and then freed seemed to have no qualms about taking on slaves for themselves. And sometimes this would go back and forth.
“Are you saying that slavery was a good thing for slaves in ancient times?”
No I am not saying that. I am saying it seems in ancient times they did not view the institution of slavery as wrong.
“That older slavery is much better than modern slavery?”
Again I am not saying that. It may be true it may not be true. I am dealing with the question what they thought was right and wrong rather than what the conditions were or whether it was or was not more or less moral.
“Are you saying that in ancient times if a poor man stole from a rich man it would have been ok since there was no understanding of right and wrong?”
No I am saying the opposite. They had an understanding of right and wrong but it seems they did view slavery as wrong.
“The truth you believe is relative to your knowledge and understanding but it is just an opinion, not a fact.”
I don’t believe truth is relative to my knowledge or understanding. I believe a claim is true if it accords with reality. No one may understand a claim is true or know a claim is true but if it corresponds with reality then it is true.
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/01/05/in-real-life-and-reasonable/
https://trueandreasonable.co/2017/04/24/scientific-imperialism-what-is-a-fact/
“Let’s agree to disagree.”
No problem but I am not sure we disagree.
“On a side note: I find your articles very interesting and stimulating to the thought process, I look forward to reading more of them.”
Thank you very much. I know I tend to dive pretty deep into philosophy and it is heartening to know people find it interesting. I have many more blogs to write. Thank you for participating in the discussions here.
I Asked — “So are saying that slaves in ancient times did not think slavery was wrong?”
Your Response — “Yes it appears so. Many times people who were slaves and then freed”
My Question — Logically why would they need to be freed from something that is right in your opinion?
You Stated — “I am saying it seems in ancient times they did not view the institution of slavery as wrong.”
My Response — Then why in ancient times did they have an entire false goddess (Feronia) who granted freedom to slaves or civil rights to the most humble part of society?
You Stated — “I am dealing with the question what they thought was right and wrong”.
My Response — In ancient times slaves often tried to escape, if you think they believed slavery was “the right thing”, then why would they also try to escape from it?
You Stated — “I don’t believe truth is relative to my knowledge or understanding. I believe a claim is true if it accords with reality.”
My Response — Let’s test your theory and see if you agree with it. The reality of ancient times is that slaves tried to escape claiming they did not want to be enslaved so much so that they created a goddess to justify the end of slavery and disregard for human civil rights.
Given you position of truth and reality do you now acknowledge that slavery was indeed wrong in ancient times?
https://questionablemotives.wordpress.com/
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